doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Analyzing 19th Century Patent Use #'s

Per above I started a cursory look at Henry Rifling Adams & Tait Patent. Several posters maintain that A&T patent use numbers were always chronological. Couple of observations:
-- First, it looks like that Henry Patent 2802 of 15 Nov 1860 should have expired in 1874. Somehow patent use numbers for Henry rifling A&T extend up to 1888. So I assume that the Patent was extended for 14 years for some reason (I'm wondering if the formal adoption of the Martini Hentry for issue to all troops in 1874 had anything to do with this).
-- And did they start numbering anew when the patent was extended?

Here are the few Henry rifling A&T use # guns I've found from a pretty quick search of the internet.

Added several more guns with Henry Patent A&T use numbers:
. . .3,. . . 4** - A Samul & C,Smith muzzle loader with the crest of a fellow who died in 1868, converted to center break gun by G.E. Lewis of Birmingham (date not stated but one of the first A&T guns 1862? )
. 399, .400 - SN 18797 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & rue Scribe, Paris. .500 BPE, U-L, hammer gun dated mid 1874
. 448, .449 - SN 18856 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris. Sxs .500 BPE. U-L, hammer gun. dated 1874
1355, 1356** - SN 3210 - Alexander Henry double rifle made for Queen Victoria, completed Dec 1873 - presented to her bodyguard John Brown.
1844, 1855 - SN 3585 - Alexander Henry double rifle made for Prince of Wales, 1874-5
2459, 2460 - Alexander Henry ,450 BPE SxS Rifle given by Prince of Wales in India. Completed on 7 Sep 1875
3369, 3370 - Alexander Henry .500x3� BPE SxS Rifle.
3524, 3525 - SN 21361 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. .450BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L, hammer gun. mid-1878
3756 - T.Bland cape rifle. 12 ga/.577. delivered 19 Aug 1884
5046, 5047 - SN 6122 - Alexander Henry, Rifle SxS, BPE 20/.577. Completed Jan 1888.
5304, 5305 - SN? - Alexander Henry, Rifle SxS. BPE dated 1888.

** I'm going to assume that the above A&T use #;s 3, 4 on the Smith muzzle loader were stamped as early as 1862 when A&T started building barrels.
** The Queen Victoria/John Brown A&T use #'s 1355, 1356 don't fit the pattern. (unless you eliminate the two Reilly 1874 guns) Which is why I wondered if the SN's started again in 1874.

Anyway here is a preliminary graph based on the 5 datapoints above excluding the Smith and John Brown guns.



Here is an alternative graph plotting in the Smith (3,4) and John Brown (1355,56)k guns if the numbering system was not restarted in 1874, isolating the two Reilly guns. It looks like A&T were stamping about 130 a year from 1862 to mid 1873; 250 use numbers a year from mid 1873 when the John Brown barrel was probably numbered to 1888.

I checked my Reilly library - those SN's actually appear on the guns - I have photographs. 400 would have been numbered about 1865 if all A&T use numbers were chronological. The 1878 Reilly should have had a number around 2524 but the 3524/25 are indeed on the barrels. There must be an explanation.


Here is a sample of Alexander Henry's original records, showing the John Brown gun - from Donald Dallas' excellent book on Henry. (if there are copyright objections, I'll delete). It has the Henry patent number mentioned in the records....I don't seen the use number for A&T barrels though. (It looks like the Henry guns were serial numbered when ordered per usual UK practice as I understand it - I don't know when the barrels were marked with the patent use #'s...whether when completed at the A&T workshop before being mated to the gun or afterwards).



Questions:
-- Do patent records for Henry still exist? Who might have them?
-- What is the difference between a straight forward Henry rifling patent use # and a Henry rifling A&T use # - if any?
-- How did Henry extend his patent for another 14 years in 1874?
-- Did the use #'s start anew in 1874?

(I considered the possibility that Reilly bought a block of numbers in the early 1860's which might account for those two 1874 guns in the use #400 range...but Reilly built a lot of rifles...can't make them fit unless the SN's restarted at some point)

Need help from Alexander Henry experts: Here's another Henry Rifling Adams & Tait Patent use number graph, concentrating on known guns with established dates of delivery. (Assuming that A&T began to make Henry rifling patent barrels in Birmingham in 1862 as reported on the internet).

. . .3,. . . 4** - A Samul & C,Smith muzzle loader with the crest of a fellow who died in 1868, converted to center break gun by G.E. Lewis of Birmingham (date not stated but one of the first A&T guns 1862? )
. 399, .400 - SN 18797 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & rue Scribe, Paris. .500 BPE, U-L, hammer gun dated mid 1874
. 448, .449 - SN 18856 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris. Sxs .500 BPE. U-L, hammer gun. dated 1874
1355, 1356** - SN 3210 - Alexander Henry double rifle made for Queen Victoria, completed Dec 1873 - presented to her bodyguard John Brown.
1844, 1855 - SN 3585 - Alexander Henry double rifle made for Prince of Wales, 1874-5
2459, 2460 - Alexander Henry ,450 BPE SxS Rifle given by Prince of Wales in India. Completed on 7 Sep 1875
3369, 3370 - Alexander Henry .500x3� BPE SxS Rifle.
3524, 3525 - SN 21361 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. .450BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L, hammer gun. mid-1878
3756 - T.Bland cape rifle. 12 ga/.577. delivered 19 Aug 1884
5046, 5047 - SN 6122 - Alexander Henry, Rifle SxS, BPE 20/.577. Completed Jan 1888.
5304, 5305 - SN? - Alexander Henry, Rifle SxS. BPE dated 1888.



The 3 Reilly gun use numbers fall significantly outside the curve... But their dates of manufacture are very solid and those three guns indeed had those patent use numbers - photos don't lie.

Original Questions from above:
-- Do patent records for Henry still exist? Who might have them?
-- What is the difference between a straight forward Henry rifling patent use # and a Henry rifling A&T use # - if any?
-- How did Henry extend his patent for another 14 years in 1874?
-- Did the use #'s start anew in 1874?

More questions (Donald Dallas wrote a great book about Alexander Henry; surely someplace there is info on his relationship with Adams and Tait and their use of his patent on their barrels.)

1. Were the barrels stamped with the Henry Patent use # when finished individually, or when they were paired with a gun?
2. Who stamped the barrels with the patent use number and when? A&T or the gun maker?
3. When are barrels for a gun delivered to the gun maker? If a gun has a "delivery date" recorded for giving the gun to a customer....how much earlier than this date would the barrels have been stamped with the patent use number or delivered to the gunmaker?
4. Could a gunmaker order 50 individual tubes from A&T and join them together later as necessary in house? (unlikely)
5. If a gun maker...Alexander Henry say...ordered barrels from A&T would A&T make the barrels to certain Henry specifications, or would Henry make the action to fit the barrels and lumps on the barrels once they were in hand?

Oh and by the way, "what is a Henry Patent A&T use #" anyway? Is it a Hentry Patent on an A&T barrel? Did Henry use other barrel makers and is his patent stamped on their barrels?

Talking to David Trevallion today answered some of the questions. The barrels originally would have been tubes with roughed-in flats and lumps. The barrel maker will choose two tubes. At that point the pat use number will be stamped on them. The barrel maker then shapes them, joins them, the filer then goes to work on the lumps. So the Pat use number could well be stamped on the barrels six months before the gun is completed. The gun serial number, however is assigned when the gun is ordered which could be 3 years before the gun is delivered.

See thus line... Will research another patent.

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