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Argo44 Offline OP
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This is a new post combining some stuff from two other lines.
-- I have been dating Reilly's in the 19th century.
-- I'm also interested in who paid for certain patent use numbers during that period since this might provide additional evidence on who built the guns. (For instance, I can't imagine that if Scott built a gun in the white for Reilly or whomever, he would put a patent use number on the gun....He'd have to pay himself for the patent...- oh I guess that's possible...but...).

Darryl commented previously on Westley-Richards patent use numbers including W-R guns built under license by other makers. But each company had it's own system apparently.

Here is an example of Reilly paying for a Perkes ejector system (for history: did Reilly pay for that patent - or did WC Scott pay for it or whomever the cognoscenti believes built the Reilly guns; i.e. if Reilly did not build the gun, then who paid for the patent?):


1) are records for 19th century patent use numbers still available from the companies who owned (or later bought) the patents, including who paid for them and dates they were bought?
2) If not..can at least the date the use number was sold be recreated?
3) Does anybody have any idea of the time lag between the sale of a 19th century patent use number...and it's actual appearance stamped on a gun? (One poster thinks some patent holders sold whole blocks of numbers to individual gun builders).
4) And how did this all actually work? Who bought the patent number (probably the gun maker with the name on the rib)? Who made the said patent action or extractor or fore-end or whatever? If the patent number were bought by say Reilly or Blanch...would they then pawn if off to the trade to recreate it?

This is an example of method. Here are Reilly's that mention Purdey Patent 1104:

17393 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and 2 Rue Scribe, Paris; 12bore. Shotgun SxS. Push-forward U-L, hammer gun. Purdey Pat 1104, use #948 (CBL1's gun) (dated 1872)
17476 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 12bore. Shotgun SxS. U-L, Hammer gun (Buffum) (Purdey Pat 1104)(use# not mentioned) (1872)
17534 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; 12 bore, SxS shotgun. Pushforward underlever, Purdy 1104 patent use # 1037.(1872)
18523 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street & rue Scribe, Paris. Shotgun SxS 12bore; U-L, hammer gun, Purdey patent 1104, use #2135(1874)
20468 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and rue Scribe, Paris. 10bore. Shotgun SxS. Top lever hammer gun; Purdey patent 1104 use #3463 (1877)

There are four data points for 1104 use numbers bought by Reilly. The guns have been dated (see chart, logic and sanity checks) and I am especially confident in the accuracy of the dates of the guns during this period because of the number of guns and the "markers." Purdey Pat 1104 was taken out on 01 May 1863 and presumably became public in May 1877. Here is the graph, based on those four data points, of the dates of Purdey use numbers....



if everyone who had a firmly dated gun of whatever brand/name with a patent use number on it, would post this (along with the date of the gun), the graph could be refined and guns could be confidently dated by the patent use numbers:

If someone in UK could mobilize GUNSTAR, GUNTRADER, and the major auction houses to simply look at the guns and record the data....a lot of this UK gun history could be recreated. (maybe it's redundant...perhaps records exist but as I said on the Reilly line, Purdey can't respond on who paid what and when for Patent 1104 - the records are literally locked up).

I will be posting several other graphs based on my database of Reilly guns and the patent use numbers on them. Reilly records are all I have and those are only recreated from years of investigation. Others must have a lot more...Donald Dallas certainly does. And some company records must still be extant (I'm thinking about Henry rifling patent numbers). If so please post where this info can be found - I'll follow-up. Many thanks. Merci

This is UK gun history.




Last edited by Argo44; 03/07/20 11:04 AM.

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Toby, is a real font of knowledge and one can pretty well understand early on that trying to date guns (or confirm dates) by patent use numbers is going to be Quixotic. Yet, in the end Reilly proved to be so consistent in numbering his serial-numbered guns that dating actually proved to be possible, no actually highly probable and logical based on marker dates and confirmed by "sanity checks."

So this interest is two fold_
1) One hopes to find one patent maker with a consistent numbering system which might theoretically help confirm dates on guns which have previously been undateable.
2). Also, the whole business of who made what for whom, when, and who paid for the patents is understandably as confused as the whole sub-contracting business in London and Birmingham at the time.

I've been challenged to "prove" Reilly made guns...I've posted a lot of circumstantial evidence...have Library of Congress working on a couple of things...am physically reviewing census records. But the business of patent use numbers proved almost irresistible, especially since the Purdey 1104 patent progression (dated only by those 4 Reillys) look so logical.

So, I'll take Toby and others at their word...this is a confused mass of unsupportable data - some makers paid for blocks of numbers from patent holders, etc.:
- And I will always be confused by how, if say Scott build a gun "in the white" for Blanch or Reilly or H&H, he could then stamp patent use numbers on said gun. Was he charging himself? Double charging the buyer for the gun and the patents (I could see this - "you want an action...fine...you want the accessories...pay for it" (try buying a jeep without the Bose speakers, the map accessory, etc.)?

Anyway, here is a date chart for Scott patent 761 from 1878, the "climax action" (almost instantly recognizable) based on 3 Reilly guns with patent use numbers I've dated. It's an odd curve and I'm not sure I believe that SN use number from Reilly SN 25038...no photos of the Patent - it would be dead on if it were "1200."





24675 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 12 bore SxS. top lever, hammerless, back lock, non-ejector. Scott action patent 761(no use #. (1882)
25038 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Sreet, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 Bore Shotgun SxS. Top lever, hammerless. Scott/Baker pat 761, use #200; Needham/Hinton sears (Pat 705) 1879 patent. (1883)
27853 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 16 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott climax action Pat 761 use #2112, Perks, crystal indicators, Scott gas check Pat 617 use #1953, Whitworth Steel barrels, 1st of pair. Argo44s gun . "Not for Ball" (1886)
27854 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott climax action, Perks, crystal indicators, Whitworth steel barrels, 2nd of pair. (Buffum)

Based on the two Reilly patent use numbers close to each other at the top of the graph (there will be three because of 27853's twin)..it looks like Reilly bought a block of numbers.

But, in searching Scott patent number 761, Holland & Holland bought a bunch of them early on (first 6 years of the patent). H&H may be able to date their guns at least one of them restored by Toby and exported to USA. If it's worthwhile, I'll write to H&H and ask them for dates of those guns and how they paid for the patent and to whom/when...

Use # 150 - H&H SN 6096 (H&H dated the gun to Lord Mandeville, possibly 1880)
Use # 832 - H&H SN 6777 made for a "Dalgleish"
Use #1190 - H&H SN ? allegedly from 1882 sold to a W. Place/Burnley (Check out the theoretical time line - almost dead on)
Use #1400 - H&H SN 7616 made for a Mr. Straker
Use #1401 - H&H SN 7381 made for Dr. Salix (no completion date)(Toby restored)
Use #1651 - H&H SN 7610 (replacement barrels)

Actually the Scott use numbers make more sense in some respects than the H&H SN'S but since it took three years for H&H to build a gun, which were serial numbered when ordered...maybe not. (This is why Reilly won out on volume at the time - he could build a bespoke gun in 3-4 months).







Last edited by Argo44; 03/08/20 11:47 PM.

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And the obvious question... what if a gun maker built an entire gun action under license? Because it happened. Daryl talked about how Westley-Richards reviewed entire guns built by others using his patents.

Last edited by Argo44; 03/09/20 10:16 PM.

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I've written this letter to Holland & Holland. We'll see what comes of it:

Sirs. I have written a new history of Reilly of London and created a date chart to permit dating of his serial numbered guns over 90 years from 1827-1912. It was published in Diggory Hadoke's on-line magazine "Vintage Gun Journal last summer and can be read in its entirety on this lone: https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=44

In continuing research I got interested in certain patents and wondered whether the patent use numbers on various guns could be dated. As an example, I've created a graph of use numbers for Scott Patent 761-78, the "Scott Climax Action." The use numbers look pretty logical up to about 1886.

I've noted five H&H shotguns using the action posted below. I'm wondering if you have data on when these guns were serial numbered (I assume when they were ordered) and when the 761 patent was paid for (and who paid for it). (And I realize this is asking a lot...but thought I'd try - Purdey is unable to access their records for Patent 1104-63).

Use # 150 - H&H SN 6096 (H&H dated the gun to Lord Mandeville, possibly 1880)
Use # 832 - H&H SN 6777 made for a "Dalgleish"
Use #1190 - H&H SN ? allegedly from 1882 sold to a W. Place/Burnley (Check out the theoretical time line - almost dead on)
Use #1400 - H&H SN 7616 made for a Mr. Straker
Use #1401 - H&H SN 7381 made for Dr. Salix (no completion date)(Toby restored)
Use #1651 - H&H SN 7610 (replacement barrels)

You can see some conversation about this on this line: https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=566741#Post566741

I realize this is a Quixotic request..patents were sold in blocks; each patent holder had his own system, as chaotic as the gun making business in the 1880's was in its entirety in London. But somehow the first 7 or 8 years of that Scott patent 761 look fairly logical.

Many thanks, Gene Willi
ams

Last edited by Argo44; 03/09/20 07:50 PM.

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WC Scott website mentions that Richard Galyon holds the pre 2006 Scott records. In the off chance that he might retain patent use information, I've written this letter to him (to test the water).

Good afternoon Richard. From the WC Scott website I believe you hold the historical WC Scott information on pre-2006 guns.

I have written a new history of Reilly of London and created a date chart to permit dating of his serial numbered guns over 90 years from 1827-1912. It was published in Diggory Hadoke's on-line magazine "Vintage Gun Journal last summer and can be read in its entirety on this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=44

In continuing research I got interested in certain patents and wondered whether the patent use numbers on various guns could be dated. As an example, I've created a graph of use numbers for Scott Patent 761-78, the "Scott Climax Action." The use numbers look pretty logical up to about 1886.

I've noted five H&H shotguns from pre 1886 using the action posted below. I have written to H&H asking for dates of these guns to help refine the 761-78 dating chart and for any information on when they paid Scott for the patent use and how much they paid. Unfortunately H&H may not retain these records. This is not surprising. Certainly Purdey is unable to access their records for Purdey Patent 1104-63.

Use # 150 - H&H SN 6096 (H&H dated the gun to Lord Mandeville, possibly 1880)
Use # 832 - H&H SN 6777 made for a "Dalgleish"
Use #1190 - H&H SN ? allegedly from 1882 sold to a W. Place/Burnley (Check out the theoretical time line - almost dead on)
Use #1400 - H&H SN 7616 made for a Mr. Straker
Use #1401 - H&H SN 7381 made for Dr. Salix (no completion date)(Toby restored)
Use #1651 - H&H SN 7610 (replacement barrels)

You can see some conversation about this on this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD

I realize this is a Quixotic request..patent use numbers were sometimes sold in blocks; each patent holder had his own system, the patent use "system" in England at that time seems to have been as chaotic as the gun making business in the 1880's was in its entirety. But somehow the first 7 or 8 years of that Scott patent 761 look fairly logical with the patent use numbers ascending regularly and generally seeming to match gun serial numbers that can be dated.

By any chance in addition to Scott Serial Number records, do you retain any information on patent use payments made to Scott in the 19th Century? Many thanks, Gene Williams

Last edited by Argo44; 03/10/20 05:27 PM.

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I'm a bit late to this thread, and unfortunately my pinfire Reilly carries no particular patent information. But I do have three guns with patent use numbers:

12-bore double-barrelled bar-in-wood pinfire sporting gun by John Blissett of London, serial number 4067, made @1863?, with J. V. Needham patent side-lever fastener (rotating bolt single bite snap action, self half-opening, patent 1544 of 1862), patent use number 171 (see the silver poincon).




12-bore double-barrelled self-half-cocking underlever pinfire sporting gun by Cogswell & Harrison of London, serial number 5904, made 1864-1865, push-forward underlever single-bite snap-action with half-cocking feature (Edward Harrisons patent No. 271 of 1864), patent use number 26 (you can see the number engraved within a cartouche on the action bar).



14-bore double-barrelled pinfire sporting gun by the Masu Brothers of London, serial number 2309, made @1865-69, with Bastin patent underlever action with a forward-pivoted pull-down underlever with hinged catch (patent 2395 of 1856), patent use number 598 (stamped on the underlever, but not visible in this photo).



I don't know if the Needham action was supplied to Blissett in the white already numbered, or if he made it and added the number, or if Needham made the whole gun and Blissett added his name. The gun is London proofed, so if Needham made the gun, wouldn't it be more likely for the gun to carry Birmingham marks? In this case, I would presume the action was obtained in the white, and barrelled and finished by Blissett.

The Cogswell & Harrison gun uses their own patent, yet there is a patent use number. I don't suppose they pay themselves a royalty (?), so numbering their guns in this way is just for marketing? The matter is confusing. In any case, the 26th gun is pretty early in the patent's use.

The Masu gun has the numbered Bastin action, but the gun carries Liege proofs, and one of the Masu brothers continued the business in Belgium, while the other, Gustavus, operated the London operation. It would seem that the barrelled action was Belgian sourced, and either the gun was completed in Liege and sold in London, or the barrelled action was brought to London for finishing.

I believe William Powell & Son lifter-action guns (Powell's patent no. 1163 of 1864) carry a patent use number, but unfortunately mine (a 12-bore bar-in-wood number 3790 first made in 1866 as number 3690 and re-numbered and re-sold by Powell in 1869) was converted into dual-fire and the modification to the action bar to allow an extractor obliterated the patent use number.

I hope others will add to this threat. The whole matter of patent use numbers and what exactly they signify in the process of building guns is a mystery to me.

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Steve, those are some pretty amazing guns. That single bite side lever is impressive. I haven't begun to try to compile lists of patent use numbers from the 1860's. I think I need a proof of principle to establish that someplace there is one firm that had a logical chronological series of patent numbers. I though the Purdey 1863 1104-63 would be the one that worked...it looks logical and the use numbers fit my Reilly chart. But Purdey says the records are literally locked up by the family. Probably only Donald Dallas could ferret that out.

Anyway thanks for the numbers. I'll file them and we'll see what comes of it.


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I wrote a letter similar to the Purdey letter above to Richard Gallyon, who, per the WC Scott website, now retains the records of WC Scott serial numbered guns pre 2004. He sent the following reply:

"Thank you for your e.mail. Unfortunately I have no further information on the subject so am unable to help. Good luck with your research.
Yours sincerely,
Richard Gallyon
"

So, for Scott Patent use numbers, it looks like a chart will have be recreated on our own, similar to the ones above. Shouldn't be that hard to get fairly close.


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Researching further into Scott Patents has opened a bewildering array of use numbers and discordant gun SN's dates all over the place (including Pat 617 Gas Check, Pat 761 triplex, etc). Of course Toby warned me about this. H&H bought out Scott so they may be the repository of Scott patent info; but I don't feel like writing them again.

(Interesting question...if Scott sold a block of Patent Use #'s to a gun maker, how would Scott check to see the action or fore-arm or whatever came up to snuff?
-- Daryl said that Westley-Richards required the maker of the patented action bring the gun over to be checked out for quality.
-- Does this mean by definition that the owner of the block of Scott Patent use numbers made the patent gun/action/fore-arm/ejector himself - or sub-contracted for same himself? (pretty obviously, "of course").
-- And by the way, once the patent is on the market...making it was not beyond the abilities of any competent gunsmith at the time - See UK court cases


In any event, in the search for a "holy grail," a UK gun patent that remained consistent in its use numbers over the life of the patent, which could be used to confirm date of manufacture of a gun, I'll look elsewhere than Scott.

. . . -- Perhaps 1860, 15 Nov - Henry patent 2802 - 7 groove shallow rifling might be next? Except at some point A&T began marketing the patent in the early 1870's..Have to figure that one out.

. . . -- And based on a very knowledgeable UK site, this is probably an early example of what we're looking for:
-- H Walker patent for barrel bolting and safety for drop-down actions patent No 455 of 12 February 1872 (stamped on Reilly SN 19286 use #1098, dated very early 1875)

. . .-- Or this one which Scott himself claimed to have limited his ability to market Perkes patent ejector 1968-78 which he bought in 1880 until the Needham patent expired - Greener bought Needham but continued to use the name on patents - Greener vs Scott was a heavy-weight contest:
1874 - Needham patent ejector system


When you see the possibilities of using this data..it is just frustrating that patent use numbers have not been communicated as a matter of course in gun advertisements.

Last edited by Argo44; 03/14/20 10:59 PM.

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Ok new question ....1860, 15 Nov - Henry patent 2802 - 7 groove shallow rifling, I'm assuming that by 1871 when Henry rifling was adopted for the service Martini-Henry, that his rifling systems became ubiquitous. Now the question. the Patent would have expired normally in 1874. I'm finding the patent on Reilly guns up into 1880.

And new use numbers appear which may have started again when Author Adams & Joseph Henry Tait (A&T) began making barrels in Birmingham in 1862 for Alexander Henry. Here are a couple of Reilly's I've dated to 1874 (when the patent should have expired)...but those use numbers look very low for a patent that originated in 1860 and was by 1874 used by everybody.

18797 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & rue Scribe, Paris. .500 BPE, U-L, hammer gun, Henry Patent A&T use# 399, 400
18856 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris. Sxs .500 BPE. U-L, rebounding back-action hammer gun. Henry Patent A&T use# 448, 449

Did A&T issue their own use numbers? When did this start...they formed a partnership in 1862 and were in business until 1899 or so. Can anybody make sense of these numbers? What's the difference between a Henry patent use number and a Henry patent A&T use number? And how did Henry extend his patent beyond 1874?

For instance here in an 1878 Reilly with Henry patent use numbers on it (unless it's a different patent):

21361 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. .450BPE. Rifle SxS. U-L, hammer gun. Henry patent use #3524, #3525

Last edited by Argo44; 03/22/20 12:59 AM.

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