doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1893 UK - screws on fences?

I've only recently started enjoying looking at 19th century patents. I try to find the original patent and then read through it including the drawings...if I have a hard time understanding something I send it to my mechanical engineering professor brother. Reimey, Steve, Toby...and a bunch of others on this board are much more knowledgeable.

But I think you'll need to post the patent number...not just the use number. With the patent number, a determination can be made. Here are 3 fore-end fasteners from the 1872-73 era from my simplified database:

1872 - Anson patent 3791 - fore-end fasteners
1873 - Deeley patent 1422 - fore-end fastener
1873 - Scott patent 615 - �key� fore-end fastener

Well, I'm to blame too...Never looked at the face of the action on my Reilly 16bore 27853 (dated 1886). Scott gas check patent is there...use nr. 1953:


Which means its twin 12 bore 27854 probably has the next stamp up or near to it:
27853 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 16 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott climax action Pat 761 use #2112, Perks, crystal indicators, Scott gas check 617 use #1953, Whitworth Steel barrels, 1st of pair. Argo44�s gun . "Not for Ball"
27854 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London & Paris Improved Patent. 12 bore, Shotgun SxS. Dolls Head; Side-clips; S-L, Scott climax action, Perks, crystal indicators, Whitworth steel barrels, 2nd of pair. (Buffum)

I also see the Scott "climax action" pat 761 with a use number 2112.


Where might the patent use numbers for crystal indicators be found? Behind the plates?

In my experience of A&D guns, the individual mechanisms in one of their guns carried the Patent stamp and or Use number associated with THAT mechanism. So the Gas Check carries it on the breech face, the action carries it on the action flats, the Deeley & Edge forend catch is stamped on the lever's side. What you need to remember is that there are several different patents at work in the firing mechanism of an A&D boxlock, not just the original leverwork: one patent for the basic leverwork, another patent that includes the new spring shape that trips the ejectors, another that covers the 'dicky bird' safety, another that covers the interceptor sears. If no patent number is quoted (and it often isn't) the use number could refer to any of the above.
In the example of an AJ Russell BLE I restored, it exhibited the following:
Anson & Deeley's boxlock patent no. 1756 of 1875,
Anson's interceptor sear patent no. 4089 of 1882,
Deeley's ejectors patent no. 4289 of 1886,
and given a patent life of 14 years, unless you knew which patent is being dealt with, that could place the gun between 1875 and 1900, not hugely helpful!

A44, I completely understand your yearning for a way to date guns from a Maker with non-extant records, I tried for years to do the same for Blanch but I fear you are entering a mine field of conflicting purposes for different Patentees and all sorts of financial shenanigans between the Big Names.
You will see far more patent stamps on guns by Scott and Westley Richards than any other maker as they were major inventors (or purchasers of patents) who sold huge numbers of guns to the trade to be retailed under the 3rd party's name. In fact Scott sold almost nothing under their own name in Britain, preferring to have a domestic business model that supplied guns to the trade. In contrast they sold a majority of guns for export under the Scott name.
As regards the use numbers and patent stamps applied by Scott, I think they were used as a way of checking that guns in circulation had used a patented mechanism with their permission (whether or not a royalty had been paid) and were nearly always applied by the Patentee, not the retailer. The most obvious exception to this is the Scott Spindle, the stamp for which you rarely see on anything but the earliest examples although it was used extensively and royalties charged. I think the exception reflects the deal done by Purdey with Scott whereby Scott got to charge royalties on the Purdey Bolt and their spindle for provincial makers (and export?) while Purdey got to charge royalties for the Scott Spindle and their bolt for London Makers.
Furthermore, the common practice of issuing blocks of serial numbers to trade makers for guns to then be retailed by the 'Maker' could very well have been used in reverse, issuing blocks of Use Numbers to a Maker for their exclusive use. In fact I have seen Gas Check Use Numbers with a letter prefix of 'H' on some H&H guns. In fact I think it equally likely that Scott supplied batches of ready stamped actions (receivers to you) to Makers which may have been used to produce that model of gun over a period of years, if not decades. An example is the 1st type H&H Royal which always (famous last words!) has the Gas Check but was actioned, stocked and screwed in many cases by John Robertson of later Boss fame in his independent Soho workshops. These almost identical guns were made from the late 1880's to mid 1890's in substantial numbers.

Had to check again. Yes it does say Anson & Deeley's PATENT(not USE) number 1385. Nothing on the forend iron.

Hal, it may just say Patent but that is the use number. A&D didn't have a patent number 1385.
And the forend catch is marked on the catch lever not the forend iron.

This is from my James B. Warrilow, c 1890. I was under the impression it was the 7221st action A&D licensed to a maker to use.

Thanks! My lever reads "Deeley & Edge" on the right and "patent" preceded by a rectangular mark on the left. So now we know what was patented, but still need the patent year for your research?

https://books.google.com/books?id=lvBk8df8PjUC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=deeley+%26+edge+patent&source=bl&ots=VoeUF0Y-Kp&sig=ACfU3U0dJYLeyrsMBaaHr-xiUiJPT_qJ4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwighua-tIzoAhWNhXIEHQKSAVw4ChDoATABegQICxAB#v=onepage&q=deeley%20%26%20edge%20patent&f=false

Thanks that is it. Must have had a patent number.