doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1893 UK - screws on fences?

Those two screws really detract from the visuals on that gun. Perhaps that spurred them along to quickly finding a modification that fixes that issue.

You are confusing the two different pairs of screws. The ones on the action FLATS are to do with retaining the cocking rods mentioned in the Perkes patent. The two screws on top of the fences are a Scott patent concerned with 3rd bite top rib extensions.
The spat between Perkes and WR was only about the ejector part of the patent, not the cocking rods and anyway Perkes prevailed even though it bankrupted him. As a result he sold the patent, cocking system, ejector et al to Scott who were then free to work it.

Ah...yes...that's it. Thanks. I'll search for more info about that Scott patent for my own edification. There are a lot of Scott patents I've been looking at for fun (you all know this subject - I'm still learning). Is there a number? It'll make searching it a bit easier - one of these?
1878 - W.C. Scott & sons patent 761 - coil spring, treble grip, back action hammerless lock
1879 - Ellis & Scott action, patent No 2816

Similar to the 1873 Greener wedgefast system?


Do all guns using that patent have screws on top of the fences?

I read through that entire Westley-Richards/Perkes case. Really interesting seeing who was there testifying and reviewing the arguments. Interesting to see the arguments that the Deeley patents couldn't work as taken out.

As said above, go to the bottom of the page of info on this gun and the patent date and number are there.

Toby, thanks a lot. Your site always is the most professional. Now, you're going to get a bit irritated with my ignorance. But these questions are important to me and the research I'm conducting.

When you list a series of patents like the ones on the linked gun (posted below),
-- Are these patents stamped on the gun in question or did you recognize them and identify them based on experience? i.e. What patents are physically stamped on that gun?
-- Were these patents still in force at the time a gun was built - in this case 1893 (I assume UK patents expire after 14 years with exceptions?) or were they public property at the time the gun was built?
-- Are there patent use numbers stamped on these guns in addition to the patent numbers?
. . .-- if the patent has expired then obviously no patent use number and probably no stamp at all.
. . .-- If the patent were held by the firm which built the gun, and was still current, would they place use numbers on the patent stamp? !!
(I's difficult to cotton to the possibility that a company building a gun with its own patents would put a patent use number on it which would require payment of royalties. ...Then again - corporate voraciousness could lead to this sort of double-tax. - Jeep makes Wranglers and charges extra for engines, Bose speakers, etc.)

I'll make a separate post soon asking questions about patent use numbers (and building some graphs dating use numbers of certain popular gun patents based on their links to dated guns) but the above questions are important, not so much to the shooter maybe, but surely to the academic and the historian. Many thanks.

Here are the patents listed on the gun referenced by Toby:
http://heritageguns.co.uk/Leech%2012%20SLE%203274/Leech%2012%20SLE%203274%20Details.htm



Patents Exhibited include:
'Purdey Bolt' patent no. 1104 of 1863;
'Scott Spindle' patent no. 2752 of 1865;
Perkes cocking rod patent no 1968 of 1878;
Scott's gas check patent no. 617 of 1882;
Scott's top extension patent no. 1902 of 1875;
Perkes ejector patent no 10679 of 1886;
Deeley's ejector patent no 14526 of 1884;
Scott forend lever catch patent no. 615 of 1876.

(And of course the follow-on..."Do all guns that have that Scott top extension patent 1902-75 have those screw caps on the fences?" I've searched and searched...and can only find these two guns...odd but the search is a difficult one bringing in all sorts of extraneous stuff)

I set this message to Toby and I'll make a separate line on this topic:

This is a crude example of what I'm thinking. I've got four data points for Purdey Patent 1104 use numbers bought by Reilly. I have dated the guns theoretically. 1104 was taken out in 1863 and presumably became public in 1877. Here is the graph based on those four data points of when Purdey use numbers should appear....

if everyone who had a firmly dated gun of whatever brand/name would post the use number (along with the date of the gun), the graph could be refined and we could date guns by the patent use numbers with near certainty:



If someone in UK could mobilize GUNSTAR, GUNTRADER, and the major auction houses to simply look at the guns and record the data....a lot of this UK gun history could be recreated. (maybe it's redundant...perhaps records exist but as I said on the Reilly line, Purdey can't respond on who paid what and when for Patent 1104 - the records are literally locked up).

Argo44:

Do many of the Reillys utilize the W & C Scott 'Gas Check', No. 617 of 1882? If so, purportedly those wear a patent use number between the strikers and might aide in your dating effort?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

My impression is that as simple as Scott Gas Check Pat 617 is, it is one of the most effective. One would assume it was used pretty universally after it came out. But, I can't find a single extant Reilly in my database with the patent listed on the gun. That doesn't mean it isn't there....just that it was not listed.

I do have 3 guns with Scott Patent 761 of 1878 with patent use numbers on them which I'll make a graph of...and 5 guns with crystal indicators (but without use numbers or patent stamp that I can see - perhaps this is stamped on the plates?). Anyway, use numbers are one of those little important bits of data that gun sellers mostly omit.

I'll check my own 16 ga (1886) to see about Pat. 617. My 12 bore is 1898 and the patent would have expired.

If the PUN is absent, it is said that it was worked off by a mechanic. By the way, the Italians employed the Scott Gas Check in their wares.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hope I am not damaging the thread about the fence screws too badly, but does the Anson & Deely Patent Use number 1385 as stamped on the action flats of my fairly old Greener Serial No. 19979 refer only to the latch for the fore end? When was this patent issued?