doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Very Early Westley Richards ?

Thanks.

Hi from across the pond.
From the WR book in pursuit of the best gun, s/n 2060-3913 were produced between 1830-38.
From Nigel brown's book British Gunmakers vol 2, the s/n would suggest 1833/4.
So some correlation on dates, certainly an early gun and the slab sided hammers would be from that era. Not sure where the fences have gone? sure they would have been there as made.
The makers script on the locks look very similar to another old WR i was offered recently, but this had Belgian proof marks, so i was wary and did not purchase. Would be interested to see a photo of your proofs under the barrels.
Incidentaly, WR provide a dating and certification service, details on their website, and includes a copy of the original build ledger too. Very pleased with their service which dated my gun to 1841.
Cheers

A caution about dating by serial number.

Twenty years ago, I sought serial number information from Westley Richards. The number was 4477. I got a nice letter from them indicating they had located three no.4477s in their ledgers. All were shotguns. My 4477 was a "Monkey-tail" rifle (sporting model). The lock plate is dated "1874." Photos are in Winfer's book "British Single Shot Rifles - Volume 4. "

I have extensive experience with serial numbers for both Rigby and William Powell & Son arms. Until you locate the day book entry for the sale, you can't be sure of when a particular item was sold. Additionally, there can be a 40 year gap or more between manufacture and sale.

Doesn't really matter when it was sold. Main date is when it was made.

Thanks to all for your replies.
I few years back when I was in London I stopped and provided my serial number along with a few photos and their response was polite but they told me their records showed my number as a WR rifle. They did not show much interest in learning more about this shotgun. I presume this is because it is not of the highest grade. So we have some agreement on the record books from that far back in time. Also as I have studies the geometry of the breech balls, nipples and hammers, there could not have been any flash fences as there is not enough room for hammer clearance.

Here I have added a couple of photos showing the WR proof stamps from the barrels.

Both barrels


Closer look #1


Closer look #2


Slip or two piece breech block. This must be very early in WR design and production. In all of my reading from the DGJ&SS and my library I have not found a photo with this design for the breech block.


Barrels Stub Twist (Am I correct?)

Let Fly,
My first impression was that it might be a conversion from tube fire.

Mike,
I agree that ' when it was made' is important. However, a definition is necessary. Is the
'birth date' when the receiver was forged, filed, serial number applied, etc? Or is the
date when the gun was assembled, finished and ready for sale?

Letfly,
They certainly appear to be Birmingham proof marks.
The "split" standing breech appears as only the width of the lock plates, the main section being solid, an unusual feature or modification from an earlier system as Steve suggests.
Ref the fences, maybe replacement hammers necessitating removal of the upper flash sections to allow strike to the nipples? as part of a modification? shame...

Wootang,
The breech is split into two separate pieces, a top and bottom, secured by a through bolt. The top half includes the recess for the barrel hooks and the top strap. The lower section is the lower half of the frame. As for flash fences close examination shows none existed as the breech balls are split into two separate halves with no provision for flash fences. The flat side hammers are original. The only hardware not original are the hammer screws and nipples. The ram rod is also original.

Hi LetFly,
Most intriguing! Would it be possible to add a couple of close up pics of the nipple cups from above, the standing breech with barrels and locks removed showing the split and one of the hammers resting on the nipples from side with no leather insert (to see the relative strike angle).

A few more photos from the WR. The barrels have a three digit number stamped on each of the barrel breech plugs/hooks as on the barrels with the proofs.