doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com unusual French shotguns...questions

i have seen two french guns lately on gunbroker that have interested me. both of them are obscure in origin, and difficult to research. so, here i am at the fount of knowledge - with hat in hand.....

the first was sold last sunday for just a bit more than i could justify. it is a Castel Vair sxs 12, gunbroker item #848741466. seller had no idea what it was - listing it as spanish. best i could tell it was a helice system gun with barrels by Francois Deschelles (or likely a successor). the flats had 11 palm marks, and double proofs that i suspect were in fairly recent years. as best i could classify it would be "Artisanal Stephanoise" in very nice condition. Naturabuy actually had a listing for Castel Vair in their script - but when i selected it...it disappeared....

second gun is currently listed #849714118. it is clearly marked Marcel Duhail Armes, La Ferte-Mace; another helice action (?) with false sideplates. this gun is missing it's forearm and has a rather ugly dent in the right tube. i recall seeing this gun offered a year or so back - i think by the same seller. i have asked for proof photos, and maybe interested.... years ago, i rolled the dice on a nice Beretta S57E that had no forearm. took a couple of years, but eventually it was made whole and was a nice enough gun at a good enough price. obviously the process of replacing a forearm on an artisanal french gun would be a very different prospect...although obscure a search for Castel Vair produced a few bits of information, but my similar search for Marcel Duhail has shown no references at all.

i would be interested in hearing from the usual suspects in the french gallery....the degree of information available here on items french is truly impressive.
thanks to all, and a safe and happy new year!

best regards,
tom

Castel Vair
Marcel Duhail

Links posted to save other interested parties the time.


both seem like nice guns.

I assume >>Castel VNIR<< is scribed(?) on the toplever. It has the proverbial V-C(Helice) stop on the toplever.

Looks like the MD one has the stop also? Many times a missing forend suggests it was stolen? Or did they just misplace it?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I like the Castel - I know of another similar gun in 16b for sale. The French guns seem to be very attractive, in general. And often very light.

I have seen the action that was used on the first, boxlock gun, on many French and Belgian guns. That one had some nice file work at the back of the action. I have no idea who supplied those actions, but, in Europe, they are as common as empty beer cans, and are used on everything from garden variety hardware store guns to nicer, better finished examples like the gun you posted. I�d be willing to bet the action was sold as an in the white proofed and barreled set, and went to a provincial gunsmith/gunmaker where it waited until he had an order for a new gun.

Let me get this straight-an as new, double proofed, 28� barreled 12 gauge 2 3/4� French boxlock wasn�t worth $850 to you? I would have to disagree with that notion. If you are looking, ed, this gun actually has a swamped rib, and was very well priced. That, is why it sold. Make note of it.

The second gun, missing it�s front wood, is a sad story. You are not going to come up with wood and iron for that gun as easily as you did a Beretta S57.

Neither of those names ring any bells for me, not unusual for French guns. Both look to be well finished.

Brent, that first one seemed to check all your boxes-sorry you missed it.
Best,
Ted

Second gun. Made by an armourier in La Fert�-Mac�, on the river Orne, in the greater Normandy region south of Caen.


There are Duhail's listed in the region's war-dead. I haven't yet found an armourier in the district but surely that gun was assembled by Duhail. Here is a newspaper record of Marcel Duhail, listed as a general repairer (hardware store) in the area in 1933. (I don't feel like paying to read the article:


There is a gold inscription on the trigger guard. Hardware stores across France did this sort of thing...they'd put their name on it when local aristocracy bought enough guns from them. The Customer's initials appear to be "LG". Engraving is pretty nice (and Ted does not like gold on guns). Can't say much else.


For the record I've recorded Duhail's mark in my building data of French marks:


Looks like Marcel Duhail was involved in the French Resistance in the region in the group led by Almire Viel....real Maquisards:

Cherchant par tous les moyens � agir- ne l'a-t-on pas inform� qu'un g�n�ral fran�ais avait parl� � la radio britannique ?- il rallie au cours de l'ann�e 1941 un petit noyau de patriotes form� principalement autour d'Almire Viel, de Marcel Duhail, Gilbert Ma�trejean et Raymond Guillais. En juillet 1943, le groupe de la Fert�-Mac� adh�re � l'OCM et ne tarde pas � prendre de l'extension. Joseph Ruest participe avec ses camarades � la constitution de d�p�ts d'armes, � la distribution de faux papiers pour les r�fractaires au STO mais aussi au sauvetage de l'aviateur am�ricain William Howell, survivant d'une forteresse volante.

He may still be alive....there's a 2015 telephone number for Marcel Duhail. If you are interested in the history of the gun, I am sure that a letter to the Mayor of La Fert�-Mac� would yield interesting results.

Ted,

That first one certainly does check all my boxes, and yes, I missed it. Just spent a half hour building a new search engine on GB as a result. It also has me reconsidering a 16 gauge built on the same style of action with Breuil barrels. It also checks all my boxes, except it just isn't quite fancy enough to appeal to my vanity. But might be a stop gap until the "perfect" gun comes along.

graybeardtmm3
Are you particularly looking for French guns?

A little bit more about the second gun...which to me is interesting if it can be shot.

the "Choke Rectifie" stamp has "A. Couillard" within it.


We've seen it before on this line:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=423083&page=all

And not to raise the subject again...but what the heck...let's raise it again. What is a "Helice Action?" Helice in French is Helical...i.e. the action used by Lefaucheux's underlever. The name was never patented. And everyone in Saint Etienne used the word in various ways because they think it has cache aping the VC type of engraving in the Key. (We've been through this before and Verney Carron decidedly did not patent a "Helice Action.")