doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Timberlux

Has anyone used Timberlux? I watched the videos and it looks like it is very easy to use, a bit pricey for two ounces, but...

Pretty sure my friend John Roberts uses it, and speaks well of it. You might shoot him a p.m. and ask. He's a registered user on here.

Best, SRH

I use it all the time. Easy to use. Follow the instructions. Don't put on too heavy . Don't use in High humidity . Like anyone that finishes stock I was always looking for something better. I have stopped looking.

The stain is pretty good stuff too.

What makes it superior to other finishes ?

Elf�s blood

Judging from the cost I'd say you could be right.

Nothing special about it. There are finishes just as good or better for a fraction of the cost.

Keith what works as good ?

One thought might be is to look at the msds. It appears to be a heavily thinned oil based varnish. I'd suppose it just comes down to preference, in particular working properties, since the thing that remains as the finish is fairly easy to come by.

Up front: intent is not to disparage Timberlux or their products. I have never used their products so have no firsthand knowledge as to applicability.

As to Timberlux ingredients, when looking at the Material Data Safety Sheet (MSDS) which is a legal document required by OSHA. Timberlux listed Naphtha (thinner), linseed/sunflower oils and metallic driers.

We all know that linseed oil has historically been used in wood finishes, we also know that linseed oil alone is not a very good wood protectant, as it easily allows moisture and moisture vapor to penetrate the wood fibers. In the past, it�s been mixed with shellac or resins: amber, dammar, copal, etc to make a varnish.

I have no idea on the protective qualities of sunflower oil as nobody recommend it for anything more than �food safe� applications such as cutting boards and salad bowls. And only if you cannot use walnut oil due to nut allergies.

The metallic driers help the linseed and sunflower oils to oxidize, and neither will completely dry on their own.

Respectfully

Mike

Mike, all I know is it the only finish of it's kind that does not spot or turn white in the rain.

To answer that question, you would have to tell us just what sort of finish you want. In the wood? An on the wood built up finish? Traditional, or tough and shiny as a new bowling pin? What looks correct and proper on a Weatherby rifle won't look right on a flintlock fowler or old vintage double. If you only want a finish that won't spot or turn white in the rain, most any good polyurethane or oil modified urethane will work well at a fraction of the cost. Permalyn or McClosky's Man-O-War are good choices, and have been used by a number of highly respected stockmakers.

Actually, I've spent long days out hunting in the rain with old vintage doubles that I'm quite sure have plain old shellac finishes, and a protective coat of Johnson's paste wax was good to keep them from getting water spots. You can tell a shellac finish very easily if plain rubbing alcohol will easily remove it. If you can find honest to goodness real spar varnish, which unfortunately is not as simple as believing what you read on a label, then you will have a wood finish that was developed for severe outdoor wood protection in all kinds of weather. Pure tung oil is a great finish, much better than linseed... if you can find real pure tung oil. But like linseed, you won't get good results in one day.

A few days ago while Christmas shopping, I found a nice selection of Watco Danish Oil in 16 oz. cans for only $3.99 each. It works well for some applications, and brings out grain and figure nicely, so naturally, I snagged several cans. Whatever you use, it is always wise to try some on a scrap or hidden part of the same wood to see exactly what you will end up with appearance wise. Try 10 different "natural" finishes on the same piece of wood, and you will get 10 different looks.

I totally agree with what Mike Hunter said about linseed oil finishes. Properly done, and with dryers added versus straight pure linseed, you can certainly get an attractive finish. But linseed is a poor choice for a gunstock if you wish to keep out moisture. He is also correct about the typical use for sunflower oil. It would be a great choice for a gun stock finish if you plan to use your stock as a food cutting board.

While this book is geared more toward furniture finishing, I found it to be a very good source of information about the finish you buy, the attributes and deficiencies of various finishes, what you think you are buying, and and more importantly, what you are actually buying. The disciples of Linseed won't like what the author has to say about their favored finish.

Keith have you used Timberlux?

Full disclosure... Nope.

And for what they charge for a measly couple ounces, I refuse to be bent over or duped into believing it has any special magical properties that can't be found for a small fraction of the cost of Timberlux. Read that MSDS to see what you are paying for. They should be charged with rape.

I pay for results . On a sanded in finish it fills faster, top coats quicker and works easier. It also is great for repair and restoration of dry looking stocks. It plays well with other finishes. Depending on level of application you can develop a low satin to a medium gloss.

At less than $10 per stock I can afford it.

I have tried all the stuff you mentioned. I ll send you a bunch of partial containers if you like.

Of course thicker finishes will fill pores quicker than thinned finishes.

And thinned finishes will penetrate deeper into the wood for better sealing. It's a magical chemical property known as viscosity. For even more versatility, make it thinner for sealing end grain by adding a couple teaspoons of $8.00 a qt. naptha. That's certainly worth $29.95 plus shipping for two whole ounces!

Great to see that you've discovered that boiled linseed oil is good to clean and improve the appearance of dirty, old, dry looking stocks. I can use cheap polyurethane and some rubbing compound or fine steel wool to get a low satin sheen, or a very high gloss. Gloss varnish will work too. No magic there.

I recently bought a full gallon of boiled Linseed oil at Home Depot for several bucks less than you paid for 2 ounces of Timberluxe. Of course, there was no $8.00 a qt. naptha or $3.00 a qt. sunflower oil in the Boiled Linseed Oil can. I mixed some with Fluid Film to spray the frame and underside of my truck. Maybe I should've spent $1968.00 for an equal amount of Timberluxe. That way, I could feel I was doing a better job of protecting my frame from salt spray.

On second thought, I think I'll continue to avoid advertising hype and hyperbole, and spend my hard earned money intelligently. I'd also recommend going back through the old threads here and reading what Damascus had to say about the fantastic profits you could make by selling small bottles of homemade esoteric gun stock finishing elixir. Very important to concoct a catchy Old English sounding name, and to ascribe secret mystical magical properties in the advertisements!

Some of you know me, most don�t, I�ve been doing restorations on vintage Winchesters for 25+ years; I�m also an amateur Winchester/antique firearm history researcher, and Current President of the Winchester Arms Collectors Association (WACA).

A couple of years ago, I was asked to do an article on Winchester wood finishes for the Winchester Collector magazine.

Just as Ford and General Motors don�t make their own paint, Winchester didn�t make its own satins & finishes, but instead purchased them from the XXX Company, a relationship that continued until the late 70s/early 80s.

Somewhere during my research, I was given a copy of Winchester�s wood finishing process circa 1903. I�m not talking pencil scribbling in a notebook, but step by step process laid out on original Winchester stationary: �two coats of XXX Company red brown #2 stain, allow to dry for a day, burnish, apply 1 coat of XXX Company #1 clear sealer��etc. Unfortunately, The XXX Company has been bought/sold several times so the original company no longer exists and the exact formulations are lost to time or the dumpster.

Around the same timeframe, I was approached by someone peddling Timberlux finishes, they told me they had used the original formulation that Winchester used, which really got my attention. Then they followed up with some story about getting the recipe from a 90-year-old former Winchester employee who used to make the finish at the Winchester factory�. My faith quickly faded.

Now Keith brought up Watco Danish Oil, The Winchester custom shop used to use that for customers who requested a hand rubbed oil finish on their Custom Shop Model 70s, and 21s.

There are a lot of finishes that won�t turn white when exposed to the elements: I really like Daily�s wood finishes https://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/

You may want to take a look at their SeaFin Teak Oil, SeaFin Ship'n Shore Sealer, and BenMatte Danish Tung Oil, all are made for marine environments, which is pretty harsh.

I use the teak oil and SeaFin Ship'n Shore Sealer on my boat, Seems to protect better than anything else I�ve found, so I�ve adapted them for gunstocks.

Respectfully

Mike

susjwp, You asked "has anyone used Timberlux" I have used a lot of it. I recently received a 50 bottle shipment. If you have further questions about it give me a call 715-814-1295 or PM me.

I have lost the desire to publicly debate the virtues of Timberlux with folks that have never used it.

Full disclosure susjwp... I've not only never been foolish enough to pay $29.95 for a 2 ounce bottle of inexpensive linseed oil, naptha, and sunflower oil... I've also never paid big money for Snake Oil or magic beans, and have never bought a real genuine Rolex watch from a vendor on a sidewalk in New York City. I never paid for get rich quick schemes, and I never gave my charge account number and expiration date to a Pakistani sounding guy who called me and said his name is Bob Jones and promised to extend my car warranty or lower my cable and internet bill. I also never gave my bank account and routing number to a Nigerian Prince who promised to deposit his fortune in my account.

Because of that, I probably have no right to comment about such things, and can't possibly know that doing those things would be foolish.

In addition, I'm guessing that you have probably hunted in the rain with one or more guns that was finished with something besides vastly overpriced Timberluxe... and the stock did not spot or turn white in the rain. As Mike Hunter suggested, there are a lot of boats out there with wood trim and various marine finishes that prove the absolute fallacy of that statement.

I also found it interesting that his research showed the Winchester Custom shop used Watco Danish Oil when a customer requested a hand rubbed oil finish on Model 70's and Model 21's. At the $3.99 a pint I paid several days ago, that gives me 2 ounces of Winchester Custom Shop stock finish for about 50 cents.
I may just have to go back and buy several more cans. Several years ago, I did some testing to see which wood glue would give me the least visible joint in black walnut. I cut, planed, and glued up a bunch of small blocks using various wood glues and epoxies. Afterwards, I sanded the glue joints and I applied a coat of about a dozen different wood finishes to my test pieces to also see which ones did the best job of reducing the visibility of a closely fitted glue joint. The Watco Danish Oil was one of the best in this regard, yet it did a good job of bringing out the grain and figure.

A decent box of shells costs at least $10-15 and is gone in a hunt or two. A tank of fuel is 50-$100 and gone after a few hundred miles of driving.

$30 for a finish that lasts several years or even decades, particularly when applied to a gun worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, doesn't seem like a cost worth counting.

The real question is only if it is better or worse than the other finishes available. $3 or $30? Irrelevant in my opinion.

What I'd like to know is what kind of finish is produced and what type of gun or project it would be best for. I'm partial to the traditional English oil finish for vintage double guns. But I'm also interested in learning about other options

Woodreax, I buy in bulk and get the 1/2 oz bottle for $8 it will do 2 stock refinishes. It works great for English style hand rubbed finish. check out the photos and videos on the website. Call me if you have questions or contact Brian at Timberlux.

http://www.timberluxe.com

I disagree completely Woodreaux. I'd like to retire comfortably someday, but accomplishing that means that I shouldn't piss away money on inferior products. If I save a lousy $20.00 on a stock refinishing job, that is money I can use toward the purchase of more ammunition, my next gun, or fuel to fill the tank on my truck. Wasting that amount on an inferior product when better, cheaper products are available is merely proof that P.T Barnum was right about a sucker being born every minute. And it is well known that boiled linseed oil, i.e., refined linseed oil with a dryer added, is at the extreme low end of overall performance as a gun stock finish. It has little water or abrasion resistance. It offers virtually no UV light protection to wood, and it is actually a food source for mold and mildew. The addition of naptha to thin it, and sunflower oil which is more suited for cutting boards and wooden salad bowls adds nothing to that performance. Mike Hunter correctly pointed out that linseed oil in combination with copal and other resins has a long history as a better wood finish than linseed alone. Linseed is a great additive in varnish and oil based paints. But for a gun that is actually used, there are many better finishes available.

The only good thing about Linseed Oil as a wood finish is that it is relatively cheap and readily available. But when someone markets it as something it isn't, and then charges an exorbitant amount for it, to me that is little different that the con artist that sells fake Rolex watches or gold plated jewelry that is stamped 14k

I don't mean to say that I would choose to pay more if all things were equal. Just that I wouldn't dismiss something just because it's more expensive, especially when the difference in cost doesn't contribute significantly to the overall cost of refurbishing or using the gun.

For the amateur (thats me), the extra $20-30 per gun adds up to not very much money over the course of my life. For the professional, I would think that extra cost would be easily recovered in the fee charged to the customer, most of whom wouldn't notice a difference of $30 in the overall refinish of a fine gun, especially if the finish exceeds their expectations.

Now if it's an inferior product, that's a different story.

Look its 25% sunflower oil, 25% linseed oil, 48% Naphtha, and some Japan drier. If you really must have it, you can make a gallon of your own for $30, (.46 cents per oz) or� you can spend $15 an ounce.

Let�s see� 128 oz in a gallon, thirty bucks for two ounces� that�s $1920 a gallon. �.geesh� I�m in the wrong business.

Kinda like spending 15 bucks for a single loaded round, or reload your own for .46 cents. Your call, and your $$$

What if it was a super-duper gun oil for fifteen bucks an ounce, that was a mixture of 25% motor oil, 25% automatic transmission fluid and 50% kerosene� is it still worth $15 an ounce just because it will lubricate your gun? Or would you look for something better and less costly?

There�s a whole bunch of better finishes out there�. Spend twenty bucks on a quart of Daily�s Ship n Shore, give it a try; my solid oak kitchen table is finished with it� it�s had boiling water (teapot) spilled on it, 5 years in use, two teenagers, no water marks, no white when wet, no peeling, my wife wipes it down with a damp sponge 3-4 times a day with no issues. And yes I use it on stocks.

I use the Ship n Shore & teak oil on my boat�s wood� it�s in all types of weather and outdoor conditions: constant sunlight, always wet, and even a bit of fish blood� it holds up great.

When was the last time you exposed your guns to those conditions? Then sprayed them down with bleach and a good hose rinse when you got it home.

I wouldn�t even attempt that with a linseed or sunflower oil finish.

Mike, do you mean that you are using Daily's on guns as well? Granting that it gives a super durable finish, I would have thought a boat finish would not give a finish comparable in appearance to an oil finish. (Edit: I see that you added that you do use it on stocks. Is it your primary finish of choice?)

Your point about making your own finish seems mostly reasonable. My point is that the same argument could be made for Daily's, or just about any other finish: Figure out the ingredients and make your own, and you'll undoubtedly saved some money. At Large volumes, it could be quite a lot of money.

You might say, yes, but it's a real hassle to sort out what the ingredients are exactly, then to get the ingredients in the appropriate form, then to figure out just how to mix them, etc. And it's not worth $15 saved, when I can just go online and order it for $20/qt.

So granting that not everyone wants to make everything from scratch, I still say that $30 is a drop in the bucket when refinishing a fine gun. It's less than the FFL fee to have the gun shipped to a gunsmith.

All that said, I made my own slakum oil and very much enjoy the process. So for me, if Timberluxe is good stuff, I would definitely be inclined to give a go at replicating and then modifying the formula to suit me. It's more enjoyable to me than just buying the bottle off the shelf. But I wouldn't fault someone for skipping that step if they had more money than time and interest.

I could go down to the Piggly Wiggly and buy everything that goes into a Gormet meal but that don't make me a Gormet. I could make my own underwear for pennys on the dollar of store bought but I don't, I could mix my own rust blue solution but I don't. I could load my own shells but I don't . I could heat with wood but I don't. I could mix my own finish and I have and still would if I found a mix that gave better results than Timberluxe.

If you guys are happy with what you use and get good results , good for you. But why the negativity for a product you have never used?

Threads like this have driven the wealth of knowledge that was once here away.

Woodreaux


Yes I use Daily's on guns as well, generally I use Ship n Shore on the inletting, as well as a sealing coat for oil and lacquer type finishes.

Like many others here I've got a bunch of wood finishes that I've tried once.

My go to finishes are Daily's teak oil, Watco Danish oil, believe it or not Minwax Antique Oil finish and Tru-Oil; all depending on the look that I'm trying to achieve.

I can get anything from a had rubbed oil finish to a high gloss "piano" finish with just Tru-Oil, it all depends on how you work it.

There's a lot that I look for in a wood finish; does it protect the wood from moisture, easy to apply and work with, easy to repair, and will it give me the look that I'm after, mostly replicating the original finishes.

I also don't like "gummy" finishes, especially on stocks that will be checkered.

Both linseed oil and sunflower oil are pretty poor in protecting the wood from moisture, and linseed oil is pretty gummy. There are sooo many better options.

Try Timberlux if you like it... great, but keep in mind that it will not do a good job of sealing the wood. But also try some Daily's... it is good stuff, and actually made to protect wood.

There's a huge difference between saving 5 or 10 bucks a quart on making a home brew that has numerous and costlier ingredients, and saving around $1900.00 a gallon on something that is simple and cheap to make.

But I'm not really sure why anyone would wish to make their own homemade version of Timberluxe, because even if you save a lot of money by doing so, it still isn't very good as a stock finish. Nothing in the ingredients is worth anywhere near what it costs. I think Mike's example was simply to illustrate what a terrible buy it is, for an inferior product. He gave the name of a couple products that are much cheaper commercially, and will do a much better job of finishing a gun stock and providing long term protection.

Once I thought it would be cool to grow my own alkanet and make my own alkanet root stain from it. Now I realize that I can get equal or better results buy simply buying some Behlen's Solar Lux. But I sure as hell wouldn't do that if the Behlen's cost over $1900 per gallon, and didn't work as well as alkanet. It isn't just about saving a few bucks. But I've already said that.

Mark asks why the negativity for a product that we've never used. The answer to that is simple, and if he had paid attention, the answer has already been provided numerous times. The ingredients in Timberluxe are not anywhere near the best choice for a gun stock finish, and the cost for what you are actually getting is beyond ridiculous. This isn't about cooking a gourmet meal, and we aren't forgetting secret ingredients like eye of newt and wing of bat, mixed under a full moon. I've painted a number of cars too, and always used good brand name automotive paints, primers, and clearcoats. If someone started selling cheap water based latex house paint and marketing it as a great automotive product at an exorbitant price, I wouldn't have to actually buy it and paint a vehicle with it to know that it wouldn't be a good choice. If using our brains drives non-thinking people away from this site, I'd like to be the first to say goodbye to them. I think that's a pretty lame argument for digging in ones heels and trying to convince guys to pay a lot for linseed oil, sunflower oil, and naptha.

I don't think Mike and I are driving folks or a wealth of knowledge away. We are offering knowledge on wood finishes that is proven and very well established. The one reference book I suggested is hardly the only source of this information, and we're not simply making things up about this subject. My opinions are based upon well known facts. Some folks still swear by Linseed oil for furniture and wood floor finish too, even though there are much better choices. The jury came back and gave their verdict long ago, and Mark is rejecting it. At this point, I wouldn't even try to change his mind.

Daly's has been my principle wood finish for a dozen years or so, great stuff! I also use Watco Danish oil, Linseed oil, alkenet root, Waterlox,spirit stains, all depending upon the finish I desire. I have a client who uses Winwax antique oil finish with superb results. I often use Daly's to harden my Linseed oil finish. It has been 15 years since I used tru-oil but I hunted the last stock I finished with it this year in driving rain and sleet, still good to go. Lots of ways to get a good finish. I have yet to try Timberlux, I admit the price scares me off, but I do like the what I have seen of the stocks finished with it. I might have to try a bottle just to see for myself. Like Mark, I do a lot of restoration work and while resistance to the elements is one factor I consider it is not the only one.

Good to see both Mike and Mark posting on the forum.

Thanks all.

It is good to see Mike and Mark posting here. I appreciate everyone who share their experiences. Easy to understand why all won't agree on products and processes.I understand that it is thinned before actual usage.

Would any of you care to comment on the pros and cons of a 50/50 mix of tung oil and marine spar varnish for a sanded in finish? No arguments will be forthcoming from me. I'm just trying to learn.

Thanks, SRH

Jim,
Would you care to talk about your slacum mixture? I tried some of the published info from one of our British members and ended up with a nice smelling oil with wax on top that did not harden. I know others had similar results and one poster felt it was a change in metallic driers on this side of the pond. I would be very interested in hearing about your positive results.
Steve

If it's from a trusted source, why not.

My thought would be, to be particularly careful to follow brand recommendations. I don't think there is just one formulation of spar varnish and most tung oils are chemical modifications themselves into resins. I don't think the different ingredients in finishes stay separate, but probably react chemically to become something else. Generically, I'd suspect most any commercial wood oil finish that hardens is probably a 'varnish'.

Because I probably don't have the experience a lot of you folks have, my preference is to thin a favored finish with whatever the manufacturer recommends for cleanup. It may take longer, more layers, to lay down, but it helps me tone down some finishing problems that say, bubba was here. I don't mind mind argument or disagreement about it, it's only opinion.

Alrighty, does anyone have a thought about a thin wood sealer? What I'd like to try to do is lessen how checkering might look darker with the same finish as the rest of a stock.

I have recently come into a gun that was finished in this way, and the finish is a gorgeous, satiny finish with pores completely filled. Mostly curious about opinions as to it's resistance to weather, handling, etc.

Thanks, craig. SRH

This is from memory, so not 100% certain about some of the details:

I started with alkanet soaked linseed oil (Tried and True Danish Oil, which is just polymerized linseed without any additives; alkanet powder from an herbal shop online) mixed 50:50 with pure gum turps (Diamond G brand pure pine spirits). I used that until I liked the color, then switched to oil and turps without color. Once that had begun to build up a little, I switched to Tried and True Original and Danish oil mixed (the original is linseed and beeswax and was a little thick), carnuba wax, Venetian turps, and a few drops of lavender oil in lieu of elf's blood.

I was happy with the finish but I did struggle with it not wanting to harden. With some more time, it seems great now. Definitely not a high speed finishing process.

This is when it was still not completely hardened, but still had a decent shine.


And the other side after some more coats:


Here's what I started with:

The problem with varnish today is that the term �Varnish� is used to describe all sorts of finishes: polyurethane, urethane, low VOC, water based etc� no telling what�s in them.

Traditional varnish was a mixture of Resin (generally Copal), Oil (Tung or linseed), Metallic Driers, and a Solvent (Mineral Spirits, Naphtha, Paint Thinner, Stoddard Solvent).

So if you are using a traditional varnish; which is getting harder and harder to find, it should be fully compatible with tung oil, for thinner I would use Mineral spirits.

Try mixing some, and apply it to a piece of scrap wood first.

I'd think that combination would probably provide a nice protective stock finish Stan. But I'll repeat what I've learned about tung oil from multiple sources... Most of the stuff that is labeled Tung Oil contains little or no actual tung oil. Truth in advertising is almost non-existent in the wood finish business.

I'll go back and recommend that you pick up a copy of the book "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. I've read much of what he says in the book from dozens of other reputable sources in the stock making and furniture finishing business over the years. But his book is the best compendium of most all of it that I have found to date. He also covers stains, strippers, thinners, and prep work. Used copies that can be left out in the shop for a quick reference are available online for less than 10 bucks. If anyone finds something with more good information packed between two covers... please let me know.

Like you, I am still learning. Once upon a time, I was under the impression that refined Linseed compounds were the tits, and I started finishing with GB Linspeed, etc. Thankfully, I learned that there are many many other finishes that are much better, and rarely much more expensive. All it takes is a willingness to learn.

In the chapter on oil finishes, Flexner relates that he was once asked by the editor of Woodwork Magazine to write an article on tung oil. He says he thought it would be an easy assignment, but it took him three months of research, experimentation, and sifting through false claims. His assertion that most tung oil isn't really tung oil is a confirmation of many others who are knowledgeable about wood finishes. It seems that most of it is nothing more than thinned varnish. And even varnish is a broad term that covers a lot of very different compounds. Furthermore, the Spar varnish half of your mixture may not really be traditional Spar Varnish. Rather it may be some modern formulation that is a cheaper alternative thanks to the development of plastic resins.

Like others here, I don't have any over-priced one-size-fits-all solution to wood finishing. Often, I wish to try to stay as close to what a vintage gun manufacturer used originally, so that requires using finishes that are not the absolute best protection, or best for fine checkering, or best for pore filling. Often, especially with field grade guns, if you seek to replicate original finish, perfectly filled pores are the last thing you want. That is why a lot of guns almost scream at you that they have been refinished.

craigd, most finishes that are cut with the appropriate solvent will penetrate deeper and seal the wood better. Some popular sealers are nothing more than the flagship product that is cut with thinner.

As you know, the problem with checkering is that those little diamonds contain a lot of end grain, so they naturally absorb much more stain, finish, skin oils, etc. and become darker than the surrounding wood. To a point, this is what we mostly want and expect to see in a stock. The common practice after checkering is to brush in a little thinned finish of the same brand that was used for the stock. But there is nothing to say that you can't carefully use something else that won't darken the diamonds quite as much. You might even wish to try some thinned polyurethane which often is lighter than many finishes. It may also have the added benefit of penetrating the diamonds and making them tougher and more resistant to breaking or other damage. You can even use a cyanoacrylate (crazy glue) to toughen and seal checkering diamonds in wood that is more brittle, porous, or prone to fuzzing.

Try cutting some checkering into a scrap of the same wood, and experimenting with different thinned finishes to get the effect and color you want. I'll repeat what I said earlier about my little experiment with wood glues and finishes. I tried perhaps a dozen different brands of untinted "clear" finishes. I used a gloss and a satin polurethane, Minwax oil modified urethane, Linspeed, Tru-Oil, Tung Oil, Waterlox, Watco Danish Oil, Deft, Permalyn, a couple different varnishes including some very old Sherwin Williams Spar Varnish that my Grandfather had in his basement when he died in the late 1960's, plus a couple more. The final appearance on the same piece of black walnut was somewhat different for every one of them. But as I recall, the polyurethanes I tried gave me the lightest tint.

Edit: And here's a little tip to keep all those opened cans and bottles of finish from skinning over and drying out... They sell a product called BlOxygen Finish Preserver that is simply a spray can of inert gas that is heavier than air.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=1147

You squirt some into your can of finish or paint just before closing the lid, and being heavier than air, it displaces the oxygen that causes your finish to skin over or harden in the can. However, I realized that I have a 220 cu. ft. and a 60 cu. ft. tank of inert gas on my two MIG welder carts. I just lift the wire feed wheels and squirt a good shot of Argon-CO2 into my paint and finish cans and bottles and immediately seal them. It works great with expensive moisture cure urethane paints too.

As a newcomer to all of this, it is that complexity that makes the experimentation fun but also intimidating. Even in the suggestions above, which are all very much appreciated, there is the caveat that the experts here use different finishes for different purposes and that one has to be extremely careful when buying ingredients or commercial concoctions.

In my opinion, that is the appeal of a well-advertised bottle of something someone else has made.

For me, the learning is much of the enjoyment, even if I will never be a professional or expert.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge.

Thanks much keith, and I'm with you on trying samples. I have a back burner rifle butt that I'd like to push over the finish line. Nothing fancy, moderate figure wood that I'd like to see the grain run through the wrist instead of seeing it too broken up by checkering.

I had given thought to the extra thin CA idea. A flat board soaks up finish unevenly, as you mentioned, all that end grain tends to exaggerate the effect. On a side note, mostly subjectively, for me thinned and the same unthinned finish doesn't seem the have much penetration difference into the wood. Mainly, I use the strategy so that things that might not be going right are smaller and somewhat easier to get back on track.

It probably has to do with the products I lean towards and my technique, but that's why I've been thinking about the sealer angle giving me a possible subtle little difference. Anyway, Happy New Year to you and the folks that visit the forum.

edit to add, for regular paint, for many years I've just laid a layer of saran on the surface. When it comes time to use the paint again, I don't try to remove it. I just shake or stir the paint and pretend it's not even there.

Woodreaux, that is exactly why I strongly recommended Flexner's book. We don't have to do 3 months of research and experimentation when we have the benefit of picking up a good reference book written by a professional who has spent over 20 years learning, experimenting, and compiling all of that knowledge in one handy place. But I would never say he is the be-all, end-all, one and only source.



And this is precisely how and why someone can make a fortune and take advantage of those who are unwilling to learn, and those who refuse to believe that products like Timberluxe are, in my opinion, highly over-priced and less effective than many other far less costly alternatives. As I said, Boiled Linseed Oil is about $25.00 a gallon at Home Depot. Sunflower Oil is even cheaper at around $12.00 a gallon, and Naptha is around $8.00 a quart. Dryers aren't terribly expensive either considering the small amount used. A manufacturer would buy these chemicals in much larger volumes at even lower prices. So there is a lot of profit in catchy names, hype, and slick sales pitches.



That much is obvious, demonstrated by your willingness to make your own slacum. With that attitude, you are far less likely to get stuck in a rut of outdated and sub-standard finishes, or fall prey to slick sales pitches. Hey, even products like Linspeed and Tru-Oil are expensive when you consider what's in them and what they cost for a small bottle. We pay a premium for convenience quite often. But sometimes the price of convenience is ridiculous. When they started selling plastic bottles of filtered city drinking water, I thought it was insane. But it is a billion dollar industry that has a bigger carbon footprint than Al Gore's jet. Great for those who profit from it though.

I think we're mostly on the same page, Keith, even if we count some of the costs differently. If I tried Timberluxe, and it gave me outstanding results, I would certainly consider trying to make my own version of it for the experience as well as the saving.

I'm going to try to make Damascus's slacum for a gun sometime soon. Maybe for my 1892 Henry Atkin boxlock. Seems fitting to use the old school oil finish for a gun of that vintage. I won't be taking it in the duck blind anyway.

And actually the Flexner book is sitting on my shelf waiting to be read, as it turns out. I bought it with regular woodworking in mind, but maybe I will have to add it to my 'Books for the Amateur Gunsmith' list.

Thanks for your input on the slacum Jim. I have not seen or used the "tried and true" product line. I may have to give that a go.
Steve

A local guy (private) who picks up work from different gun shops around here. I sometimes visit him to see what interesting guns or wood he�s working on. When it comes to wood finishing, he explained to me how he gets a good satin finish. He simply stains the stock, using either stain or wood dye, which depends on the type of wood. Then simply uses Minwax wipe on poly. The results look great.

How do you guys feel about this process?

I used the Minwax wipe on poly to refinish a Tobin, I got from John Mann, a long time ago. It took a while, and I rubbed between coats with a white scotchbrite pad. I didn�t want a bunch of money tied up in a lower grade gun.
It worked excellent. A friend wanted an old gun to shoot, with the same requirements, (not much money) and bought it from me. I wouldn�t say the gun received heavy use, but, it got plenty of use, friend is very conscious of the limitations of a Tobin and likes it anyway, but, has developed MS and seldom hunts anymore.

The stock still looks excellent. I�ve refinished two stocks with poly, and I�d happily do another with the same product. No cachet from using it on this board, but, the results met my expectations. If I am not mistaken, there is a version of that product that is indoor use only, so, be careful of which one you buy.

Best,
Ted

I have really enjoyed using it and like it. If you call them they have a high humidity version that is about to come out and they will sell you a bottle of that to try as well. Great customer service

Yesterday evening, I went back to the store that had Watco Danish Oil for $3.99 a one pint can, and I bought 16 more pints. Of course, I planned to use it for other things besides gun stock finishing.

Today, I'm having second thoughts...

I should go back and buy all they have. And since they have several other stores within an hour of me, I should go and buy up all those stores have too. Then I could put it in little 2 ounce bottles and sell it here for $29.95 a bottle by calling it Genuine Winchester Custom Shop Hand Rubbing Stock Oil.

And I could sleep well knowing that I was selling you guys a better stock finish than a linseed/sunflower oil concoction.

Some of those concoctions go hard in the can. I had a can of Formby�s rubbed oil finish, that I bought for a table, that went hard after about a year. I did get my table done, but, the Minwax wipe on poly I used on the gun would have been better. It never went hard in the can.
My walnut gun cabinet and the black walnut speaker stands set I built for my Klipsch Heresy speakers were finished with Watco Danish oil. It was OK indoors. Not sure about using it on a gun. The gun cabinet was replaced with a safe.

Best,
Ted

Watco Danish Oil is perfectly fine for finishing a gun stock Ted, if you aren't looking for a high gloss built up finish. I have other cans of it that are at least 5-10 years old that are still good, so I'm not concerned about shelf life at all. I liked the idea of buying pint cans because there will never be very much to possibly lose in an opened can. It has linseed oil, and other ingredients in it such as varnish resin and gilsonite that make it superior to Timberluxe for stock finishing and moisture resistance too, at a small fraction of the cost. And as Mike Hunter pointed out earlier, his research as President of the Winchester Arms Collectors Assn. led him to learn that the Winchester Custom Shop used Watco Danish Oil when a customer requested a hand rubbed oil finish. So there are a lot of Model 70's and Model 21's out there that suggest it is OK.

I have plenty of sealed cans of varnish, polyurethane, and various other finishes that have remained liquid for years. I still have most of that over 50 year old can of Sherwin Williams Spar Varnish that belonged to my late grandfather, and it is still fine. But when I put my cans of Watco Danish Oil on the shelf last night, I noticed that some Gillespie Tung Oil Varnish that I had put in an empty rubbing alcohol bottle had jelled. It may still be usable if I thin it, but I wouldn't use it on anything valuable. I mentioned earlier that you can keep opened cans fresh and good by using a product like BlOxygen or Argon-CO2 to displace the air in the can before resealing it.

I made this witches brew Sla'cum about 10 years ago per a Double Gun recipe. The blueish tint is from Cobalt drier all I recall is beeswax, artist grade linseed and turpentine and the cobalt drier.

I hope I'm not asking for you to give away your trade secrets, but would you describe your process a little more?

Do you use, let's call it a "linseed oil based finish" to avoid controversy, from start to finish? Or to you top coat with something else?

Woodreaux, If you doing a new stock or a total refinish and starting with a bare sanded uo stock. Wet sand with 150 and TL till the TL and wood dust makes a slurry. Rub the slurry into the wood then wipe off excess with a paper towel. Stay away from checkering, if finish or slurry gets in checkering scrub it out with a tooth brush. Leave it overnight. Repeat with 220 grit. Leave overnight. From here on it depends what you are trying to accomplish . If 220 is appropriate for the gun and the level of fill looks correct your done filling. If not continue until you have it where you want. if I want to stain I do it now with a spirit stain. Then top coat with TL. I apply with fingers and hands spreading it even and thin. Let sit over night. Repeat until you are happy. After the 1st top coat what you see when applying is what it will look like when it drys. A Field grade gun can be done start to finish in 3 to 5 days.

Woodreax, Here is one done as above.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101349728

Woodreax, One of these is original and one is redone with TL.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...;cdn_bp=1#lg-17

Thanks Mark, that is a beautiful gun and refinish. I appreciate your sharing your method.

Speaking to the concerns of others here regarding the function of that finish, would you change anything for a waterfowling piece or a gun that might be particularly exposed to the elements?

On guns that are going to see a lot of weather I would give a couple of extra top coats

My personal hunting guns are top coated with TL and have seen rain more than once.

Would you stain the wood first, before rubbing oil in and filling pores? Also what do you mean by "spirit stain"?

Battle, I stain after filling and before top coating .

A solvent based dye type of stain like TL stain or Behlens Solar-Lux. As apposed to an oil based pigment stain like Minwax or a lot of the hardware store stuff.

I didn't invent this method. Lots of custom stock makers and gun makers use it.

As with most stuff in gunsmithing there are lots of ways to do things. If you get results that you are happy with thats what is important

Looks great Mark.

Thanks Steve, your Christmas present should arrive in a few days!!!

I don't remember who mentioned it in this thread, but I've heard/read several times that the old driers are no longer available and that may explain why linseed oil based finishes were more useful 'back in the day'.

Am I wrong in thinking that the drier only really affects the time between coats?

Also, for anyone who is looking for a good old lead-laden Japan drier, this company sells it online. Not sure what I think about using a 10% lead additive in a hand applied finish.

https://www.naturalpigments.com/genuine-japan-drier-2-fl-oz.html

What I see are two forearms that look refinished...

Ps...l like the free advertisement you're running in your signature line I guess you got the ok from Stevie.

I was under the impression that the drier helped harden the finish.

Best advise yet.

Jim, finish driers are often formulated in combination because individual drier chemicals are classified as primary (top) driers, or through driers.

Using a primary or top drier alone could result in a finish that feels hard and dry on the surface, but is still soft just below the surface. This could result in damage, or create problems if you thought a stock was dry and hard enough for checkering. Using only a through drier chemical, or using too much drier additive can cause a brittle finish.

The calculations of how much of each drier chemical to use for a given batch of finish are somewhat critical and they can get fairly complex when several drier chemicals are used. That's a reason that it may not make a lot of sense to mix your own homebrew, unless you are working from a known good formula, when the manufacturers have gone through the trouble to correctly work this all out for us.

Thanks Mark! Mighty nice of you.

Woodreax, Thanks for the link. Could be some useful stuff there.

I'm not a Dr or a chemist. I don't know the hows and whys of what makes TL work as easy as it does.

I have a lot of folks on my ignor list so I may have missed some of the previous discussions

Steve, your welcome. Are you going to the Guild show this year?

Why don't you two freeloading bOzos call each other on the telephone and save us the nonsense ?

No guild show for me this year. I have a hard time convincing myself to go to gunshows. Maybe next year, I have some projects coming along that might be fun to show next year.

Thanks Mark, Keith, Woodreux, SkB, HoJoe, et al.,

Lots of very good advice and information here. I compared following Keith the MSDS from several of the BOX stores brands: little difference between them, some who claim tung oil do not state so, others have linseed, tung, Stoddards, and other solvents. It looks like Formby's and Waterlox are the better of the premixed, but... I ordered TL, alkanet, and other ingredients via Ebay and Amazon along with that wood refinishing book ($4.00) and hope to work up a brew and practice, experiment, and learn how to refinish. Why not. It is winter, I just retired, and I have several old stocks to play with. I am a not so old luddite and will post pictures as the learning curve progresses.

Happy New Year to all,

Joe, why don't you ignore the posts you're not interested in and spare us your low-grade carping?

Billy, I'd suggest the same to you, but then we wouldn't get to see your hatred for those who support the 2nd Amendment, and your love and admiration for the anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats who relentlessly infringe upon the gun rights of law abiding citizens. Your latest ignorant diatribe starts here with your post # 561511:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=561715&page=2

susjwp, many sources claim that Formby's Tung Oil Finish contains very little actual tung oil. The MSDS for Rocklers Tung Oil states that it is 100% pure Tung Oil. The label on Hope's Tung Oil says it is 100% tung oil, but the MSDS says 100% Proprietary non-hazardous ingredients. If it's 100% Tung, why not just say so?

I couldn't find an MSDS for FDC (Factory Direct Chemicals) Tung Oil, but the manufacturer replied to the question on Amazon that it is 100% pure Tung Oil with no solvents or additives. It got excellent reviews. A couple people weren't happy because it didn't give a high gloss like Formby's. But it won't, because Formby's is mostly a wiping varnish product. The FDC Tung Oil is very reasonably priced on Amazon.com. But even the Rocklers is only about a buck an ounce... very cheap compared to Timberluxe. Note that I am not saying that pure tung oil is the all around best gun stock finish. I don't believe there is any one gun stock finish that is good for every situation.

Here's a pretty good article on Tung Oil as a wood finish with a comparison between Tung and Boiled Linseed Oil.

https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/get-more/tung-oil-debunking-myths

Now remember... I'm guilty of driving knowledge away from this site, so you may wish to use that IGNORE function!

An interesting discussion, a great deal of good information both on the problems of determining what is in various products and what they may or may not be worth.

As Keith accurately points out it depends on what finish one wants. Further as many here have noted there are a number of different techniques to achieve a desired end state. More ways than one would want to count, in part because of differences in desired end state.

There are many better gun refinish experts on this page than I; more than one who does it professionally. I do not argue whether they are wrong or right. I can only address what my limited refinishing for myself has shown me.

Going back to the base question at the start of the thread. Timberluxe? Yes, I have used it, though to refresh, not refinish and I thought the results decent. The cost, can�t say I worried about it much, but I can see the reluctance by some versus other good options.

I have also used the Purdey Warthog kit for a complete refinish and very much liked the results.

I do not use Timbeluxe to refresh gun finish anymore, for the last few years I have used CCL branded products from the UK and have been happy with those, though having read the thread before I probably overpaid. Then again not that much and I don�t care

Thank you for the kind gift Mark, I picked it up yesterday.
Steve

You�re welcome!

Did you two remember to thank Dave Weber for the continuous free advertising you do here?



____________________________

DON'T FEED THE FREE ADVERTISERS!

Nothing like a little nUt licking to get in a free add er two....

Frank, you and Billie are the local authorities on nut licking.



Good morning Sunshine

That's pretty funny Stevie, coming from the Official State Fruit of Colorado. If Colorado had their own currency, your picture would be on the Three Dollar Bill.



Looks like you let your pony-tail down Stevie!

Speaking of currency, why are you so afraid to answer the questions about whether you pay Dave when the continuous free advertising you do in each and every post generates business for you?



____________________________

DON'T FEED THE FREE ADVERTISING GUNSMITH'S

I recall an old saying about a 3 dollar bill

How's it go as queer as a 3 dollar bill ?

Frankie and Billie know all about that kind of thing. Sounds like Billie thinks you are quite thee stud frAnkie b0y!



I think I hear banjos



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1AL2V02oTw

That's pretty funny Stevie, coming from the Official State Fruit of Colorado. If Colorado had their own currency, your picture would be on the Three Dollar Bill.



Looks like you let your pony-tail down Stevie!

Why don't you tell us more about the girls shoes that you are wearing in that photo in your Big Front Sight Insert thread. Does wearing girls shoes improve your artistic expression Stevie? Or is that just your way of coming out of the closet?

News-Flash Stevie... we already know!

Speaking of currency, why are you so afraid to answer the questions about whether you pay Dave when the continuous free advertising you do in each and every post generates business for you? Or are you saving your money for ballet slippers and women's lingerie?



____________________________

DON'T FEED THE FREE ADVERTISING GUNSMITH'S

With all the free advertising he does on here I bet he gives members a discount price.

Not.

Steve'O is from the entitled generation.

He shouldn't pay Dave for advertising its Dave's duty to supply him with it.

Steve'O is from the generation that thinks Socialism is a big happy get together.

Seems Steve'O has recruited another free advertiser fisherman with his jig fishing Guns International link...

This guy Mark has balls enough to accuse other people of trolling.

Give us a break Mark'O.

frAnk'0.....it could not be more obvious that you and Billie from Pulaski (WKM) are nothing but trolls. Between the two of you you are now closing in on 25K posts of nothing but uselessness.

Have you noticed Billie has started repeating himself frAnk? You may want to get him to your gerontologist, I think it may be signs of early onset dementia.