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The Fox design is subject to being striker bound, the firing pins dont move back with the hammers when you are attempting to open the gun. It is worse after the gun is fired, usually. If the gun is in this condition, usually a result of use and wear, it will need the attention of a gunsmith.

Best,
Ted

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The large cocking hook on the Lefever was in no way implied to mean it had anything at all to do with the ability to tighten the action. It was mentioned in regard to the statement by Fox which strongly implied the gun with the fewest parts was always the simplest & best. The large hook serves three purposes, it cocks the hammers, serves as the check hook & cams the extractors. The earlier models with a separate extractor cam were far smoother & more efficient.

I have an H grade Lefever with a large hook. I ran across it some rs back as a parts gun for $25.00, so bought it. It has a busted stock, sort of held together by electrical tape, a crack in the left barrel 14 inches ahead of the breech & the bores resemble a sewer pipe they are so pitted. The top lever is well left of center. Amazingly, though the ball joint screw can be totally removed & the barrels placed on the action & closed & it is tight & on the face by the action of that square-shouldered Doll's Head alone.

The rotary bolt guns have the reputation of once they become a bit worn of being the worst of any double ever made anywhere in the world of any design of "Blowing Open" upon firing. They are an absolute nightmare to properly fit up & most were not, even from the factory. For the most part, they only hold the barrels shut & do not provide the secondary purpose of providing axial support to reduce the flexing of the frame. This, as noted, is done exquisitely by the Lefever Doll's Head.

The entire axial load on the 21 is carried by the hinge pin it Alone, thus I stand by my statement it has No superior design element. This is normally sufficient, but a little added "insurance" is often appropriate.


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Getting back to the Fox, is it the general consensus that though the Fox lockup is a good design once it wears out to the point of lever left of center, its basically unfixable?

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If your gun is tight and on face I would suspect problems with the yoke ( the connector between the lever and the rotary bolt). I had one that the pin was bent, worth a check.


I learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what I learned the day before was wrong

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None of my Fox guns have come up off face and I don't know how secure the lockup really is. However the sound they make when I close the action seems very similar to the clank of a Diebold safe at the bank...Geo

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rotary bolts are replaceable...


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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Everything said so far makes me appreciate the Lefever design more & more. I have never had a Lefever show any signs of primer drag after firing. The inertia hammer design takes care of that. Lefever catalogs call it as a rebounding lock, but it is not truly rebounding. The mainspring itself is halted "just" prior to the hammer striking the firing pin. There is no rebound action imparted to the hammer, but it is not under tension from the spring so it is free to Float back on opening giving no drag.

As mentioned, by a slight turn of the ball hinge screw it can always be put back on face. I will note, this is the extent to which it should be tightened. It should "NOT" be used to compensate for bolt wear to bring the top lever back on the center. This will disturb the fit of the barrels to the standing breech. If the bolt is so worn it no longer can move enough for the gun to lock up tight, assuming the rest of the gun is in satisfactory condition, making a new thicker bolt is not a big deal & is what should be done.

The gun can be taken down either cocked or uncocked, no matter. Never a problem with forgetting & removing the forend with the hammers down & then having to wrestle it back on, or figure out how to recock the hammers to do do so. On most all of the various types, it is a simple matter to lower the hammers without snapping them or using a snap cap or something if desired.

Of all doubles I have ever dealt with it is the easiest to disassemble & reassemble that I am aware of.

I simply no of no other double either made in America or anywhere else that combines "All" these desirable features.

For whatever its worth, Yes I own several Lefevers & "NO" I do not own a Win 21. I have handled them I have examined them I have studied their parts breakdown & operating instructions.
Bottom line I have Absolutely NO desire to change that status & I am "NOT" in the slightest bit Jealous of those who own one of the cheapest looking Over Priced shotguns in existence.


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FWIWIP-- I think the existence of the M21 in the WRA product line, from 1931 to about 1960, anyway- owes that existence to the John Olin money that bought WRA in the early years of the Great Depression- WRA originally marketed the M21 in an effort to "be ahead" of the move towards conservation of a dwindling waterfowl resource- in 1935 when FDR moved us into Federal duck stamps and a 3 shot plug in our M1897's and M12's--You might maybe surmise the same thought behind John M. Browning's Superposed, perhaps he foresaw his A-5 auto-loader as being restricted, and UMC making its Remmie-ton copy in the M11 autoloader, with a 3 shot capacity.



By the 1930's, WRA had taken the Green Weinie on the M12's and M54's with stainless barrels- so they worked with US Steel again, only this time to "improve" their Nickel barrel steel- and in 1931 Winchester Proof Steel was their choice- a Nickel-Chrome-Moly that was heat-treatable, as compared to the other US double gun makers with the 1018-1020 AISI steels that were case-hardened, and required "double fitting" by the assemblers at Parker, A.H. Fox, etc.

My late Dad bought the used field grade 12 bore M21 in 1948 for several reasons: (1) He had 2 Model 12's- a 20 gauge made in 1931, and a 12 gauge Tournament Grade made in 1936--
Both have solid ribs (an extra) the 20 is 28" Mod, the 12 is 30" full- plus he had a SG M70 30-06 which he bought new in 1939-- I have these Winchesters, plus his M21- If he hadn't have bought, and used them, I most likely would not have inherited them. Thanks, Dad!!

When he bought the M21, the gun shop had several 12 gauge Parker and Fox doubles for sale, in the same price range- Trojan and VH, and a Sterly or two-all with double triggers. Why did he pick the used 21? Because his other Winchester shotguns had one trigger, not two- made sense to me then, still does today.

My 21 shows "wear with care"- but is it worth what some dealers are trying to get for one of that Vintage are asking- as for the
later Custom engraved and flat sided receiver series, some made by CSM-- I'll pass and keep my $ "sub rosa"-- Not my cupa tea- much like the late Ernest Hemingway- who once wisely said: "A gun is to shoot"-- RWTF

Last edited by Run With The Fox; 12/09/19 05:24 PM.

"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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You are right, oh Ed-ster of the "blue flame wrench" gruppen. Miracles do, indeed, sometimes happen.. RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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You dont have to sell me on Lefevers, I already own a nice DS grade which I love, but I love my LC Smith FW more, it just fits me better. Now Im looking at the Fox, not to replace but to supplement my other shotguns.

Last edited by Glacierjohn; 12/09/19 06:49 PM.
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