S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
6 members (Southern Sport, Momslefever, Ken Nelson, Marks_21, ClapperZapper, 1 invisible),
1,032
guests, and
7
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,481
Posts545,237
Members14,410
|
Most Online1,335 Apr 27th, 2024
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7 |
Hello everyone, Im a 70 year old hunter up in Montana. I own or have owned three side by sides and three over unders. A 1907 Lefever, a 1869 Parker GH I inherited from my father in law(his grandfathers gun) and an LC Smith featherweight. All three guns are 12 gauge. The O/Us are a 12 ga Citori, 12 ga Ruger Red Lable Sporting Clays and a sweet 20 ga early 70svWinchester 101.
My question is regarding a Fox Sterlingworth pin gun with some issues that I found in a local shop. Overall the gun is ok and seems to work well with snap caps, safety works, each trigger trips the hammers, ejectors eject. The barrels have been reblued but done well, the barrel stamping is clean and distinct and the bores are shiny.
The main issue is the lever is definitely left of center and kind of hard to open. The action feels tight to me, but everybody makes a big issue about the lever being right of center, or centered. Can a good gunsmith fix this if its a problem?
The other issue is purely cosmetic, but basically ruins any collector value. The 30 barrels ring like a bell and it has double ivory beads, but at some point, somebody milled the rib down about 3/16 for about 6-7 forward of the action. I have no idea why, maybe to mount a scope or something though there are no threaded screw holes. The machined section is dimpled so it doesnt reflect. I assume the only way to make it look original is to find a donor rib somewhere?
The guy is asking $500.00, Im thinking of offering him $300-$400, if I could feel good about the lever issue and the gun was a safe, tight shooter, Id be happy.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
A.H. Foxes were, along with the Win. M21- the two American mfg. Boxlock doubles with fewer parts to wear or get out of alignment, in years of usage. The A.H. Fox, the Ithaca NID and the L.C. Smith guns all have the same basic top extension rib lockup, the top bolt with continue to cycle to ensure a solid closure-
Two tests, besides the snap caps, I usually do on any used vintage gun such as the one you are considering- (1) With the barrels in battery, but the forearm removed, "shake" the gun slightly and check for barrel "rattle"- also mount the gun into your shoulder pocket with the forearm removed, see if you sense any "rattle"- (2) with gun closed and cocked, and with snap caps in the breech, and with the safety in "safe"position- squeeze the forward trigger as hard as you an, then remove your finger from the trigger blade, and then slide the safety forward-then repeat with the rearmost trigger- this checks for worn sears- if the hammer trips when you slide the safety forward, that can be a sign of worn sears or other firing mechanism "maladies"--
I bought two pre-1914 graded 12 bore ejector L.C. Smiths because of the top lever being to the left TDC on the top tang. I replaced the top rotary bolts and the V-spring- Bingo--
I have never worked on a Fox gun- several noted gun writers viewed them as the best designed and made boxlock ever made in America-- all coil springs, few parts, well fitted. I would agree.
There are some collectors who prize the so-called "pin" Sterlingworth Fox guns, as I believe there were few made, compared to the thousands of Fox doubles over their production span of years. If the gun is mechanically sound, but the top lever and the "Fubared" top rib section become"bargaining chips", assuming double triggers and selective ejectors, and no pitting or dents or bulges in either barrel tube, sure- try the seller out at under his asking price, with those factors "on the table"
Where in The Treasure State.?? Last time I fly fished was near Billings, the Yellow Tail Dam area of the Big Horn- in Oct- we also did a "cast and blast" Later I bird hunted in the Chief Nine Pipes Federal lands area-- tons of pheasants. RWTF
Last edited by Run With The Fox; 12/08/19 07:49 PM.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7 |
Thats very helpful, thank you. I live in the beautiful Flathead Valley of NW Montana, near Glacier National Park.
Last edited by Glacierjohn; 12/07/19 06:33 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,343 Likes: 390
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,343 Likes: 390 |
Finding and replacing that top rib is.not going to make economic sense for a non-original Sterlingworth at a $300-400 purchase price... especially one with the lever left of center. I think you can do better.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7 |
What would you suggest? Just hunt if as is and be happy? $400 for an shooter Fox seems ok.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,343 Likes: 390
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,343 Likes: 390 |
I have a 12 ga. Sterlingworth and a 12 ga. Sterlingworth Deluxe. Both are 28" guns in nice above average condition, all original, and no issues. Both were purchased in the last 3-4 years. Both were under $400.00. There are deals out there if you watch for them. You have several other decent doubles, so there is no need for you to rush in and spend too much money on someone else's problem child.
If you paid $400.00 for the Sterlingworth you describe, you'll be under water if you fix it, and you'll be very hard pressed to sell it as is for that amount. I like project guns, but not the ones I'm likely to lose money on.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,889 Likes: 108
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,889 Likes: 108 |
A.H. Fox Gun Co. Sterlingworth "pin-guns" with ejectors are not too common. The 12-gauge Sterlingworth serial numbers started at 50000 with The Sterlingworth Co. guns in 1910. The Sterlingworth was included in the 1911 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalog and they transition to being marked Made By A.H. Fox Gun Co. in the 53xxx range. All the ejector guns I've recorded are 589xx and above. The transition to the smooth hinge pin is in the high 61xxx/low 62xxx range. You might want to check things out at the A.H. Fox Collectors web site -- https://www.foxcollectors.com/
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
I will add a note or two here. First & Foremost "ANY" mechanical object having more moving parts than a Hula Hoop is always a compromise to some degree. There are "NO" perfect mechanisms. Simplicity with a mall number of parts is good to a point but this can be carried to an extreme. In My (Not so Humble) opinion I will list two features that I consider fall in this category. 1st is the rotary bolt. While I consider the Smith, Fox & NID all serviceable & dependable guns none are my favorites. 2nd is on a gun of my favorite make among the American classics, the Lefever Arms Co. This is the large cooking hook introduced around 1898 I believe. If anyone is interested I am willing to discuss either or both of these further.
As to the Win 21, I have asked on several occasions for one of their "Admirers" to list me just 1/One mechanical feature that set it apart as having a superior design than any other break open double. As yet I have none. The bottom line is it has just two things in its favor. st with it being designed & introduced after WWI it utilized advanced developments of the steel industry & was made of heat treatable alloy steels so is strong. 2nd it carries the name "Winchester".
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,126 Likes: 198
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,126 Likes: 198 |
I have all of the mentioned guns in my collection. The rotary bolt guns, when they are worn out, would be a nightmare for the common man to tighten up. Happily, it doesn't happen very often. The Lefever is a wonderful gun, not to hard to tighten up if it gets loose in the breech, but the "large cocking hook" has nothing to do with this ease of tightening. The ball joint is the secret and is easily adjusted. The Winchester 21 doesn't need any "superior design" to be a great gun. It rarely gets used enough to need tightening and if it does get to that point, a little bit of excess material injected into the locking lug surface will tighten it up for decades. The end of story is that a worn out rotary bolt gun has to go to a talented gunsmith and the others can be fixed at home. Again, end of story.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 104 Likes: 7 |
The serial number on this gun is 62013. I dont are about being underwater as Ill never sell it, Im 70 years old but still in good shape (knock wood), Ill hunt it as long as Im able then let my estate sell it after I die.
As long as its safe to shoot Ill just ignore the rib. Ill definitely do those test Run With The Fox recommended.
|
|
|
|
|