doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DIY Gunsmithing @ doublegunshop.com Total Stock Blank Transformation: How is it done?

Several days ago, a thread titled "Superlight Upgrade" was posted in the main Double Shotgun forum.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=559632#Post559632

The thread is now locked, so unfortunately, I was unable to get an answer to my question about how the near-finished stock shown could have possibly came from the stock blank that was also pictured. I think it would be useful DIY Gunsmithing knowledge to learn how to accomplish such a total transformation:



If we assume that there is only one logical way any competent stock maker would lay out this blank, it is obvious that the head end has nice straight grain that flows correctly through the wrist, and the feather crotch grain and figure would be in the butt.

The blank is planed smooth on both sides, and has a coat of finish applied, so it is clearly evident what features this blank has, and what it doesn't have.

The head end also has fairly large pores, and no figure. But strangely, the near-finished stock does not have the same large pores. And somehow, there is now figure in the stock cheeks that was not evident in the blank.

The mystery gets even deeper when we closely examine the butt end. Assuming correct layout of the blank once again, there is a dark streak in the feather crotch figure that runs from the heel, and travels diagonally down to the region between the toe and the grip. We can see from the pics of the blank that this dark figure is not just on the outside surfaces, but that it goes clear through the blank.

But then, when we look at the near-finished stock with the thick shiny polyurethane finish, we note that this dark diagonal band of figure is totally absent, on both sides. We also can see that the figure in the finished stock is nothing like the figure in the blank. I know that sometimes, some surface figure can get either better, or it can even go away during stock turning or carving. But the transformation in this stock is something the Vatican should look into, to determine if a miracle has occurred here.

So I'd like to ask the experts here... How does the figure in a blank make such a transformation??? If we could learn how to do this, we could probably turn plain maple into Circassian Walnut. So....

A) Was this truly a miracle, and the grain, pores, and figure of the finished stock really did change into something that doesn't even resemble the blank it came from?

B) Or could it be that the stock maker just didn't like that feather crotch in the butt, and the straight grain in the wrist and head, so he sent it to one of those guys who paints fake fancy grain and figure on the wood?

C) Or is this something else entirely... something that would explain why the owner refused to answer these questions, and why someone cried to Dave to have the thread locked???

I�m no expert with wood, but I was confused too. It looks like that blank would have been very straight in the grip with some nice figure in the posterior butt. But, like you, I�m having trouble putting that stock together with that blank. With that much figure in the stock, and if that blank was used, I don�t see any way possible the grip could be straight. Again though, and other than having several stocks made, I�m no expert.

Yup, for the craft of stockmaking and the assessment of a blank, I thought it would have been a good topic to discuss.

The grain, not the feather pattern, of the blank would appear to radiate from the comb down to the toe, or if somehow flipped, it would radiate towards the heal. Of course, in the finished stock, the grain pattern is just the opposite radiating from the toe forward. I think that point was realized at some point, but a cropped set of pictures was deleted this morning. Oh well.

The whole package is a heck of a project even though not my cup of tea. If it was my baby, I suppose I'd be defensive about it, but maybe there's some room to learn from the little disconnects.

I didn't know that there were additional cropped photos that were also deleted when the thread was locked this morning craigd. I was out deer hunting when all that happened.

I posted my honest feelings about the project, and got the distinct impression my input wasn't appreciated. That's a shame, because I think folks could really learn something from this sort of magic total stock blank transformation.

When working a stock up from a blank it is not unknown for all the pretty grain to end up on the floor so the finished job does not meet up to expectations . On the other hand some time the finished stock exceeds expectation and you wished you could have charged more for the blank .
Its always a bit of a gambol no matter how hard you try when selecting a blank . Fortunately most work out OK .

As usual nAsty bOb lost it and replied and I just happened to be there to capture his nAstyness before NB' could delete it....

Seconds later it was deleted and locked.

.....Boob�s nastygram disappeared just like a fart in the wind, eh jOe?

bOb might've had it finished by the tricksters at Beretta...

Or bOb in his excitement might have posted the wrong photos...even Nasty bOb can mess up.

What makes it hard for me to envision that stock out of that blank is the photos.



Great analogy.

(In the future I might need to refer to Nasty bOb as Lucky bOb)

In wood turnery you can expect most anything to happen...I've saw the most craziest looking piece of wood turn into the most plain and the average plain looking blank turn into a killer piece.

Although rare with wood most anything is possible.

This sometimes happens, but when it does, figure typically gets better, or worse on one side of the stock. I've never seen nor heard of such a complete and total transformation on both sides of a stock. Straight and plain grain in the head with large pores does not become figured wood with small tight barely visible pores... especially on both sides. There was no evidence of sapwood that might be cut away during turning, which can really change appearance in some cases, but not in this one. Rays within the wood do not turn and reorient 90 degrees from a little cutting in the duplicator. It's not like this was a four or five inch thick blank. And when you can see a dark band of feather which shows the same direction on both sides, and is also visible of the edges... that signifies that it runs clear through the blank, virtually without question. No amount of turning is going to make it go away without turning the entire blank into chips and sawdust. The blank is almost certainly feather crotch Black Walnut. The finished stock isn't the same piece of wood.

Both of the stock blank photos have a lot of glare that might be hiding the rays on the head end.

If Nasty mouthed bOb could keep his composure I'd love to hear his side.

This could be.

I probably have it wrong, but if I look past the rays and other figure at the head of the stock, I see wood grain at 90* to the direction of the blank. Because the blank pattern appears to be fairly symetrical, I can't quite picture how the tight quarter sawing is lost and the grain appears to be verticle and wide at the head?

The stock blank pictures are flipped 180* from the original blank selection choices. Because it's a straight grip stock, my senses tell me a layout pattern on the blanks would/might be comb down when looking at the blank pictures in this thread. It looks to me like the blank pictures in this thread were oriented with only the direction of the feather pattern in mind. If the blank and stock corelated, the straight part of the blank that would be the head, looks like it would be lopped off, and there's no wood to lay out the head of a stock in the other direction?

The stock and the blank in these photos are not the same species of wood let alone the same piece.

Why so terse? Hug a tree, my brain will vote that these photos don't quite help with identifying the species of either. What do you see?

Bob may be a little testy when criticised, but I like the guns he plays with. Sometimes I wonder why he shares his projects with us...Geo

With your obvious blurred vision how could you tell ?

Billy and I don't agree very often. But when it comes to guns, I must admit that he has a very good eye and good taste in firearms. I think the last time we agreed on anything was when we both nominated Dennis Daiger and his "Last Martini" project for the Whitey-J.D. Steele award in the Classic and Custom Rifle forum.

In addition, my own vision, both near and far, is still better than 20-20, and my color perception is excellent. Even at that, I still went over the pics of this blank and the finished stock very carefully, and even enlarged them to be certain that I wasn't mistaken.

I agree with Billy 100% on his stated opinion that this stock did not come from the blank in question. I agree that these two pieces of wood are not even the same species of walnut. I absolutely do not think that there is too much glare in the photos to see enough details of the grain, figure, pores, direction of rays, feather, etc. to make an accurate observation. Billy and I will no doubt butt heads frequently over politics and preserving the 2nd Amendment from infringements by anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats, but I have no problem giving him credit when credit is due.

Glutten for punishment ??

1a)

Rotate 180 degrees

1b)

Work with the left 2/3's

1c)

Note the rings, rays and feathers

1d)



2a)

Rotate 180 degrees

2b)

Work with the right 2/3's

2c)

Again, note the rings, rays and feathers

2d)

If I've accomplished nothing else,
I can at least go to my grave knowing I've brought Keith and RM Bill together this Christmas season.

I tend to like Bill�s rifle topics myself, and I�ve told him so on numerous occasions. My personal preference is to also remind him of how much I appreciate him reminding me of the rules and my intelligence, as a political disagreement strategy based on his emotions.

Apparently, while he leaped at going off topic, he agreed that there was a disconnect between a picture of a blank and a picture of a near finished buttstock. For me, I�ve seen so much variation in hardwoods that I�d be hard pressed vouch for a stick of wood much beyond an educated guess. I�d admit that for me, a good part of getting what I want has to do with the confidence in the supplier.

Some folks can do quite amazing things with finishing wood, so maybe it would have been a more interesting exercise to see both examples in the blank form, and ideally with many more usable pictures.

Genuinely, thanks for visiting Bob.

My 2 cents and I've had a number of shotguns stocked by Guild Members is it is indeed the same blank, but not laid out the way they would have laid it out as it would compromise grain flow in the wrist area. Its probably fine to do this in a through-bolt gun, but most wouldn't go that route. Agree that it is Feather Crotch American Walnut, or Claro Walnut. Its not of the thin shelled variety.

Only asking tut.

If someone were to use the finished stock, in the provided pictures, as a pattern and laid it on the blank, in the provided pictures. Is there enough wood in the pictured blank to form the head of a buttstock? I'm asking in the context of placing that depicted blank feather pattern in the same orientation on that depicted finished stock, not if there is the physical volume of wood in that blank to create a stock.

The blank in the photo is thin shell walnut. The finished stock is not. The blank has no figure in the front two thirds. There's no way it could be transformed into a fully-figured stock.

Keith, you're getting positively warm and fuzzy. Did you just join the Democratic Party? I wouldn't bet on it. Still, it's good we can agree on something.

Bill, did you turn in your dem. card? What if that blank identifies itself as neutral and not a pleasantly plump female? Are you disputing the science of how you are being forced to feel?

Just kidding Bill. For stock and blank conversation purposes, it seems that you're saying that 'figure' is generic. By that line of thinking, can't there be some uncovered figure beneath the straight appearing grain?

Would have to hold the blank in my hand with the pattern stock that was to be duplicated. That's the only way to know for sure IMO. Falling also into the FWIW, category, I once bought a Turkish blank with outstanding figure that the layout was so crappy, that the stockmaker (Guild Member) sawed it into a number of forearm blanks and a few for turkey box calls. That was an amazingly stupid (and expensive) mistake. But, I never make that error again. Their is such as thing as feather crotch Turkish. Here is an example of such stocked by Guild Member Dan Rossiter.

That is an absolutely beautiful stock.

Craig, If a blank is straight-grained on both sides. it isn't possible for it to be figured on the inside. Figure can come and go, but plain wood stays plain.

I'll take a shot at this. If a blank is dead nutz slab sawn with dark broad mineral streaks it can be turned into in some cases a dynamite looking stock with lots of smoke, that sorta looks like a Laminate stock. May look a bit weird on the top, but the sides can be really impressive.

Above said, based on what I've seen most stock makers however prefer quartersawn wood.

Hey Bill, I agree near a hundred percent, reserving the possiblity of surpises. I believe the reason we might agonize when selecting a blank is not for the figure, but that the figure and separately the grain has pattern and direction that has an implication to some with regard to desirability for use as a gunstock.

Nice stock and game picture tut.

I agree 100%. I have had all sorts of unexpected things happen when turning a blank, including bark pockets and voids in dead straight section of wood.

I think it is the same blank and just as Tut has said, likely laid out exactly opposite of how most Guild members would do it. Most of us were taught the same methodology of stock making and grain lay out at TSJC. Looks Claro or American Black to me but hard to say for sure from just a picture.

Yeah who does not love perfectly 1/4 sawn wood? I know I do but slab sawn is fine and you can get a damn fine blank out of rift sawn as well if you know how to find it inside the blank.

I for one am glad Bob shares his projects and it is great to see that Angelo Bee is still making chips!

As for grain flow, the blank in the photo has perfect grain through the wrist and needs no special treatment to compensate for weakness. To repeat myself a bit, the finished stock is a different color and has lots of figure where the blank is plain. Furthermore, the figured parts of both pieces have different shapes and sizes, and the crotch grain patterns aren't very close to one another. I'll venture a guess and say the finished stock is claro walnut.

No Billy, I did not become a Democrat. I started out as a registered Democrat, but quickly changed to "No Party Affiliation" when I saw how corrupt the Democrats I worked for were. Just getting hired to that State job required registering Democrat. Chances for promotion or advancement was dependant upon how much you donated to Democrat candidates. Several of my bosses ended up convicted of numerous felonies such as grand theft, macing, bribery, and extortion.

But as I said, I have no problem agreeing with you when you are absolutely correct. And it is evident that you know quite a bit about gun stocks and walnut, and that you carefully looked at these two pieces of wood.

And you are 100% absolutely totally correct. There is no conceivable layout or orientation that could get that finished stock out of that particular blank. I also agree that they are totally different species of walnut, and I feel the finished stock is wood from a thin-shelled variety, while the blank is undoubtedly feather crotch black walnut. I do know that English walnut can sometimes have feather crotch figure, but this blank ain't English. Too bad Maury Povich can't do a walnut DNA test, but even if he did, Bob would cry and say it was a lie.

I also have little doubt that SKB Stevie would agree with his invertebrate friend Crying Bob, even if he showed us photos of a hunk of pressure treated yellow pine 2"x 8", and claimed that the finished stock came from that.