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MayJimW Offline OP
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Finally got around to trying to research two guns I inherited from a family friend. One is a German drilling in 9x57R and the other is a drilling side by side 16 gauges barrels with a rifle barrel in 6.5x70R below. I'm pretty sure these were returned to the US after WW2. I can't find a manufacturer or year of manufacturing. Could use help deciphering the proof marks
Thanks, Jim
Not sure I'm inserting photos correctly. The last three photos showing proof marks are for the drilling

[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/Atq9jyUtDT6offJN8[/img]

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Drillingis a word derived from the German word for 3, so as I understand your post the 9x57R would be a double rifle, not a drilling. I am only getting one picture, the underneath of the chamber area for the drilling. The 6.3/70 would be bore size not including rifling grooves with a 70 mm long chamber. The 3.25 means it was proofed in March (3rd month) of 1925. It was the 270th gun proofed that month. While not visible in this picture from 1925 it should most definitely carry a smokeless powder proof.


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I'll post the image for you...only one photo:



Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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WELCOME
on your first posting

Enjoy reading here

http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html


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All correct & it looks like the longarm that passed thru the Z-M(Zella - Mehlis) proof facility wears a stamp noting a 8.7 gramme bullet?


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Raimey
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MayJimW Offline OP
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Thanks - that photo you pulled was from the drilling. How do you upload a number of pictures to the board?

[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/mCaE41PmuWGUGrwh8[/img]
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Bir38i8o9Wq9Xme8[/img]
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/g9jE3oaomHvKvqB28[/img]
Jim

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Here are the photos for the double rifle
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/o6KsMw8mjfmdRbVG8[/img]
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/hPUCQBGavHbAaXRTA[/img]
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/H719rjjCvWF7nHjh6[/img]
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/vtQBnxjPF6BrCGma6[/img]
Thanks Jim

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I cast the chamber a while ago and figured that the rifle barrel was for a 6.5x70R. Would this match with the markings on the barrel?
Jim

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[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/mCaE41PmuWGUGrwh8[/img]
This one looks to be a Zella - Mehlis Kerner-Anson Drilling.


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Raimey
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The Clamshell DR / Muschelverschluß / Stabil Action is very nice & was made by August Schüler of Suhl.

Need an image of the sides of the tubes & the left flat for load data & proof date.


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Drilling:




Double Rifle:





Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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20 gramme bullet?





Leopold Saemann of Görlitz/Schlesien was active in 1905 and around the turn of the 20th century. He seems to have a close association with the mechanics Liégoise. This was also the time in which the Stabil Action found favour and from what little I have garnered, Bernhard Merkel & August Schüler were two of the main sources for the Clamshell DR / Muschelverschluß / Stabil A&D Body Action. The August Schüler concern went on to devise other robust platforms or other robust platforms were developed in parallel with the Clamshell DR / Muschelverschluß / Stabil Action.

From the smattering of proofmarks, it looks like it was made by the August Schüler concern but passed thru the Zella - Mehlis proof facility? I'd really like to see the full regiment of marks especially the ones on the sides of the tubes & those forward of the flats on or near the lower rib.


Lovely effort Argo44.

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Raimey
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The following is musings by Axel E. on the Stabil Action origins:

>>"According to Suhl traditions (Ernst G. Dieter: Im Zeichen ds Waffenschmieds, Teil 2, Erfindungen, Patente, Konstruktionen, Kursioritäten) the design of the "clamshell" action, in Germany variously named "Stabil-", "Ideal-" or "Muschelverschluss", is ascribed to E.Schmidt & Habermann, about 1910. The unsung E.Schmidt & Habermann company, Roschstr.1, Suhl, was founded in 1858 and existed til 1945 as one of the larger Suhl gunmakers. The name is little known now, as they were predominantly gunmakers to the trade, making guns not only for wholesalers like Geco and Akah, but also for obscure "country gunshops" and famous "name" gunmakers like Barella, the Kettners, Geyger, J.J. Reeb, Miller & Greiss, J. Peterlongo and you name them. All the famous pre-war "Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig" bolt action rifles not only bear their ESHA trademark hidden somewhere, but bear ESHA serial numbers, not Brenneke's. Of course they made the guns for the "Name" gunmakers to designs and "house style" of those "makers". Other "name" Suhl gunmakers like Bernhard Merkel (not Gebr.!) F.W.Kessler (a gunmaker to the trade too) and Greifelt also made clamshell actioned double rifles, but most likely they bought in at least the rough parts, if not guns in the white or even the complete guns from ESHA. No DRP patent or DRGM design protection for the clamshell action is known. Alas, it is merely an evolution of the early pinfire doubles with trough-shaped action bars. Some of those actions even had the action bar to standing breech angle reinforced by a web, not yet as pronounced as on the clamshell action, but clearly forerunners"<<<<<<<


Below is a possible reference that I noted:

But another possibility is Helfricht & Fischer or Traugott Helfricht with DRGM 351857 on August 8th of 1908, noting the term Stabil.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post435288

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Raimey
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MayJimW Offline OP
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here is a picture of the side of the barrel
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/VGLHUVm6RgHEUs3i8[/img]
The information is great Thanks, Jim

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Raimey,
I believe the DR was proofed in Suhl between 1911-12 and 1922. Note the bore dia. and case length in mm and no date or ledger number. During this time ZM dated them and marked the ledger number, but Suhl didn't.

May Jim W.
The proof marks on the drilling, indeed, support your assessment that it is chambered for 6.5x70R. This is a cartridge made to about duplicate 6.5x58R S&S performance, but with a much smaller head diameter to allow chambering in smaller lighter rifles. It has a head diameter close to 32-20 WCF size but 70mm long. This allowed power capacity close to the 6.5x58R and still have a smaller diameter. It was sometimes referred to as the cigarette cartridge. None of the cases we traditionally formed other cases from can be used without very extensive swaging and redrawing operations. Fortunately, fairly recently a cartridge was introduced in Germany, especially for hunting Reh(Roe) Deer, to be used in insert barrels ( Einstecklaufs-ELs). This is 6x70R and is based on the old 6.5x70R case. Because other cartridges are more popular, 6x70R cases are not easy to find. If you can find some, however, they will be made with boxer primer pockets and quality brass. I think 6.5x70R cases are also made by Bertram, but if you can find some you may or may not be satisfied with them. Also, the bullet diameter may be .260-2" and the barrel must be slugged to determine it. This is the same as the 6.5x58R and is not nearly the problem that cases are. Some people just use .257" bullets and some resize 264" bullets to .260". I resize the bullets for my 6.5x58R to .260" and am very satisfied with them.
On the otherhand, loading for the 9x57R should be pretty straight forward and trouble free, using 8x57IR/IRS cases and .358" bullets. If a .358" bullet won't fit into a fired case, they can be easily resized or cast bullets can be used. Bullets for the new 350 Legend may also be useable in this case as I understand they are smaller than .358". The only complication should be selecting a load that shoots both barrels to the same POI or close. Have fun.
Mike

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Ford:

The Z-M datecode would have been on the opposite flat. Too, Suhl did not really hold w/ the Crown over N - Nitro stamp. It was more of a Z-M fetish.


I am again curious how you make the jump from 9X56R to 9X57R seeing 56mm was the max length of the chambering. Seeing the chamber cast might ferret out the demon cartridge.

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Raimey
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Originally Posted By: MayJimW


Neat Square crossbolt. How 'bout an image of the other flat as well as one of the lower rib forward of the flats?


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Raimey
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Jim,
The marks on the side of the barrel show the duty load for your rifle use a 308.6 grain steel jacketed bullet. This is a heavy bullet for the 9x57R. A more common modern bullet would be the 250 gr. and I believe it is easier to find a satisfactory load with a bullet lighter than the one the rifle was regulated for, than one heavier. Of course, each rifle is a law unto itself.
BTW, it looks like the scope mount on the drilling is some type of lever release slide on quick detachable mount. If you remove it, you might discover a maker or marketer's name. Just a thought.
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Raimey,
The 9x56 on the other flat was half visible in the photo and if there was a date code under it, the date and ledger number would have been partially visible.
I didn't "make the jump" from 9x56R to 9x57R; the owner of the rifle identified it as 9x57R. I usually accept the owner's ID of the caliber, unless he says he isn't sure. Of course, sometimes I get bad info to start with and get "wrapped around the axle", but until that happens, I have to accept his info as being correct. If it turns out to not be a 9x57R, we can address that then. The markings on the barrel don't represent the nominal caliber of the rifle, until the 1939 proof law came into use.
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Ford:

The Z-M datecode can be on the lower rib or elsewhere for that matter. But your posts regarding calibre seem to be conflicting in that on one hand you are describing to the millionth of a mm and the next one you are in the cm realm tossing them about like you are broadcasting Rye grass seed? So are we to hold with any numbers on the longarm regarding measurements?


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Raimey,
I have Vernier calipers, dial calipers, electronic calipers, Vernier micrometers and electronic micrometers, but none of them will measure to the "millionth of a mm". When I broadcast Rye, I use grain rye, the deer like it better. Since you know better than the owner ( or his father that left him the guns) what caliber it is, you can tell him. My assessment is the double rifle was proofed in Suhl between 1911 and 1922. If that is wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. I am open to an explanation of where it is wrong, based on the info given.
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MayJimW Offline OP
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The friend that gave me the rifle stated that it was 9x57R. I cast the chamber and found that it seemed to meet the dimension for 9x57R so I bought RCBS dies and formed brass from 8x57R brass which was available. I have fired it a few times with cast 9mm bullets with no problems. I haven't spent the time to come up with a load that regulates the barrels. Another factor was that I couldn't find a rimmed version of the MS 9x56mm, which was the only 56mm cartridge in "Cartridges of the World" Do you know of a 9x56R round?
Jim

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Here the photos you asked for:
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/RkaCbN9R3C457HhJ7[/img]
This is from up the barrel where the forearm attaches:
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/cJTwmfwb6GhTuRov8[/img]
left side flats:
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mq5S4TxWyQvfskpUA[/img]
Thanks, Jim

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Jim,
As far as I know, there is not a rimmed version of the 9x56 MS Mod. 1905. This cartridge was introduced with and for the Mod. 1905 Mannlicher Schoenauer which requires a rimless cartridge. The 9x57R was introduced about the same time and was popular enough to answer the demand for such a cartridge in break open guns. The 9x57R is the nominal designation( name). The case length is not listed in Dixon ( European Sporting Cartridges) as a full 57mm long, rather 56.64mm. This isn't much different than 57mm and unless the chamber is measured again, there is no way to know now if a piece of swarf or something kept the 57mm gauge out but allowed the 56mm gauge in. The tables in the back of Wiederladen(a German handloading manual by Dynamit Nobel) lists the bullet diameter as 9.08mm( about .357"), but most barrels "slug" about .358", but not all. Most people use .358" bullets, both American and German, with complete satisfaction. If a .358" bullet will enter the neck of an unsized case, fired in that chamber, it can be used. If it will not enter, in your case, trim the case to 56mm and try again. If that works, trim all the cases to 56mm and load as usual. If you are a member of the German Gun Collectors Assn., there is an article about the 9x57/9x57R cartridge is one of the later WAIDMANNSHEILs( one of the GGCA publications). Reprints are available. If you are not a member, I suggest you look into it, you seem interested.
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Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Good Idea - I removed the rear scope mount and fully exposed the words "KRUPP" on the breech end of the left barrel and "STAHL" on the right barrel. Since this translates to Krupp steel - I'm not sure this helps. No other proof marks under the mount - it was integral to barrel rib so it must have been fitted/built with the rifle.

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Jim,
That just refers to the steel, from which the barrels were made.
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Hello everyone, could you bé so kind and help me to identify my new - old german drilling Suhl 9,3x72r 16/16,its 16x65mm,Im nôt súre about the chokes, I would Like to shoot lead breneke slugs, on the right barrel is Mark 17/1 and on the left 16/1 a Š an W with the crown. What is approx. Value of it? Thank you. Im try to pú&#357; some images here. Greetings from Slovakia! MARTIN

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How can I uploadsome pictures here from my Phone? I cant find my files asit says in faq. Thank you very much

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[img]http://https://m9-3x72r.estranky.sk/admin.php?a=p&su=1&a2=dir&did=0#[/img]

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Nice Boar. Do you live in or close to Bratislava? It looks like a Roux(Underlever) drilling. It passed thru the Zella-Mehlis proof facility in 1906 or 1908(I can't see if the last letter is a 6 or an 8). Brenneke slugs were designed for just such sporting arms.



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Hi, thanks, I live near Vranov nad Top&#318;ou, its close to Ukrajine and poland. Do you think its safe to shoot brennekes from the right barrel? Should bé open choke and left one tighter as I see. And I can set french trigger for right shotgun barrel..I shot that wild boar at saturday at 30m,I hit top of the heart,lungs, IT broke the leg on the other Side and went out, no meat damage, just big hole through. IT jumped 10m and dropped dead.its very nice rifle and very Light. I paid 700 euros for it. Nôt súre what is really worth. No marksof gunmaker, only initials A. K.

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Do you háve any idea what that 00 means? Yes, its 1906.&#128578;

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https://photos.app.goo.gl/8LzANwGHN4oQeXbH9. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ncg7xU6weVgp6CnD6. What do you think about that number 739?sept 1939-another prooving? I cant find the nitro proof Mark. IT has space for 4 rifle cartridges in the stock.

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Is it possible that the 17/1 on right barrel means diameter 17,1mm - cylinder or no choke and left barrel 16,1mm - full choke? Thank you

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10.06 / 739 is the Zella - Mehlis datecode which denotes that it was number 739 for the month of Oktober, 1906 to pass thru the Z-M proof facility. AK was the actioner & LK was the tubeset knitter. The vulgar fraction 17/1(0.655") is an old gauge diameter and was not in mm. If absent of choke, the tube will not wear the Crown over W(Würgebohrung).


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Regarding the >>OO<< stamp, the probability is high that the name of the mechanic was Otto Oehring and he advertisted as a specialist in converting buffalo horn to the true form for the several applications it was adapted to on sporting arms.
He also was noted as a Gewehrschäfterei & I guess he was a stocker / shafter?


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I would say that the engraver was Z-M mechanic Gustav Ernst, but he passed in 1899 so for sure it was one of his students as he was the Master in the Z-M area. Now have I seen an Oerhring mentioned and possibly with a family relationship it could have been him. On the floorplate / bottom side of the action the engraving is very similar to that of „Raschsche Karreegravierung“, or Rasch's Square Engraving.

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Raimey,
You are correct,"shafter" is the common term for "stockmaker". a Gewehrschaefteri would be a "gunstock maker".
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Thanks Ford. So, if Otto Oerhring made any horn and shafted the dreiling, would he have applied his initials to the water-table?

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Just for reference, Burrard gives decimal equivalents for the following vulgar fractions:

16/1 - 0.669"

16 - 0.662"

17/1 - 0.655"

17 - 0.649"

Below is a link to an antiquated post with the German plug gauge values in mm:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=213433#Post213433

Difficult to see the decimal values but my wish would be to see an image in better focus when enlarged.

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Raimey,
I'm not sure the stockmaker would apply any marks to the water-table. His work would be obvious without a mark. If the stockmaker marked anything, you would think it would be the wood and I don't recall many if any being so marked.
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Below is a link to an antiquated post with the German plug gauge values in mm:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=213433#Post213433

Difficult to see the decimal values but my wish would be to see an image in better focus when enlarged.


Text available on
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Nice find & many thanks for the effort. I wonder where they acquired it and if they have use of the intellectual property?


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Just for reference, Burrard gives decimal equivalents for the following vulgar fractions:

16/1 - 0.669"

16 - 0.662"

17/1 - 0.655"

17 - 0.649"

Below would be the vulgar fraction data from the German proof tables with values in mm:

16/1- 16,99mm

16- 16,81mm

17/1- 16,64mm

17- 16,48mm

Cheers,

Raimey
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Raimey,
Axel posted it. He told me in one of his emails that it came from an original German copy of the rules(proof law). Since that is the case, the info would be open to the public use.
Mike

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Ford:

So you know that Wiki got if from Axel E.?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Nice find & many thanks for the effort. I wonder where they acquired it and if they have use of the intellectual property?

The Wiki-listed source too is scan of "Deutsches Reichsgesetzblatt 1892": WikiSource
Even new German laws should be open to public use: "In many countries, legislation, administrative and judicial decisions are excluded from copyright altogether, explicitly as is the case in the copyright acts of the Netherlands and for example those of Belgium, Germany, Slovenia and Italy or implicitly as in France." [Government Works by Mireille van Eechoud]

Markus

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Raimey,
I have no idea if Wiki got it from Axel, I only know that he made the posting that you and peevedoff left the link for, above. Peevedoff's opinion of the original source seems consistent with what Axel told me.
Mike

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Thank you very much for all info! For your help!
Martin

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