doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help in identifying German double rifle/drilling

Drilling:




Double Rifle:

20 gramme bullet?





Leopold Saemann of G�rlitz/Schlesien was active in 1905 and around the turn of the 20th century. He seems to have a close association with the mechanics Li�goise. This was also the time in which the Stabil Action found favour and from what little I have garnered, Bernhard Merkel & August Sch�ler were two of the main sources for the Clamshell DR / Muschelverschlu� / Stabil A&D Body Action. The August Sch�ler concern went on to devise other robust platforms or other robust platforms were developed in parallel with the Clamshell DR / Muschelverschlu� / Stabil Action.

From the smattering of proofmarks, it looks like it was made by the August Sch�ler concern but passed thru the Zella - Mehlis proof facility? I'd really like to see the full regiment of marks especially the ones on the sides of the tubes & those forward of the flats on or near the lower rib.


Lovely effort Argo44.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The following is musings by Axel E. on the Stabil Action origins:

>>"According to Suhl traditions (Ernst G. Dieter: Im Zeichen ds Waffenschmieds, Teil 2, Erfindungen, Patente, Konstruktionen, Kursiorit�ten) the design of the "clamshell" action, in Germany variously named "Stabil-", "Ideal-" or "Muschelverschluss", is ascribed to E.Schmidt & Habermann, about 1910. The unsung E.Schmidt & Habermann company, Roschstr.1, Suhl, was founded in 1858 and existed til 1945 as one of the larger Suhl gunmakers. The name is little known now, as they were predominantly gunmakers to the trade, making guns not only for wholesalers like Geco and Akah, but also for obscure "country gunshops" and famous "name" gunmakers like Barella, the Kettners, Geyger, J.J. Reeb, Miller & Greiss, J. Peterlongo and you name them. All the famous pre-war "Original Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig" bolt action rifles not only bear their ESHA trademark hidden somewhere, but bear ESHA serial numbers, not Brenneke's. Of course they made the guns for the "Name" gunmakers to designs and "house style" of those "makers". Other "name" Suhl gunmakers like Bernhard Merkel (not Gebr.!) F.W.Kessler (a gunmaker to the trade too) and Greifelt also made clamshell actioned double rifles, but most likely they bought in at least the rough parts, if not guns in the white or even the complete guns from ESHA. No DRP patent or DRGM design protection for the clamshell action is known. Alas, it is merely an evolution of the early pinfire doubles with trough-shaped action bars. Some of those actions even had the action bar to standing breech angle reinforced by a web, not yet as pronounced as on the clamshell action, but clearly forerunners"<<<<<<<


Below is a possible reference that I noted:

But another possibility is Helfricht & Fischer or Traugott Helfricht with DRGM 351857 on August 8th of 1908, noting the term Stabil.

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post435288

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

here is a picture of the side of the barrel
[img:center]https://photos.app.goo.gl/VGLHUVm6RgHEUs3i8[/img]
The information is great Thanks, Jim

Raimey,
I believe the DR was proofed in Suhl between 1911-12 and 1922. Note the bore dia. and case length in mm and no date or ledger number. During this time ZM dated them and marked the ledger number, but Suhl didn't.

May Jim W.
The proof marks on the drilling, indeed, support your assessment that it is chambered for 6.5x70R. This is a cartridge made to about duplicate 6.5x58R S&S performance, but with a much smaller head diameter to allow chambering in smaller lighter rifles. It has a head diameter close to 32-20 WCF size but 70mm long. This allowed power capacity close to the 6.5x58R and still have a smaller diameter. It was sometimes referred to as the cigarette cartridge. None of the cases we traditionally formed other cases from can be used without very extensive swaging and redrawing operations. Fortunately, fairly recently a cartridge was introduced in Germany, especially for hunting Reh(Roe) Deer, to be used in insert barrels ( Einstecklaufs-ELs). This is 6x70R and is based on the old 6.5x70R case. Because other cartridges are more popular, 6x70R cases are not easy to find. If you can find some, however, they will be made with boxer primer pockets and quality brass. I think 6.5x70R cases are also made by Bertram, but if you can find some you may or may not be satisfied with them. Also, the bullet diameter may be .260-2" and the barrel must be slugged to determine it. This is the same as the 6.5x58R and is not nearly the problem that cases are. Some people just use .257" bullets and some resize 264" bullets to .260". I resize the bullets for my 6.5x58R to .260" and am very satisfied with them.
On the otherhand, loading for the 9x57R should be pretty straight forward and trouble free, using 8x57IR/IRS cases and .358" bullets. If a .358" bullet won't fit into a fired case, they can be easily resized or cast bullets can be used. Bullets for the new 350 Legend may also be useable in this case as I understand they are smaller than .358". The only complication should be selecting a load that shoots both barrels to the same POI or close. Have fun.
Mike

Ford:

The Z-M datecode would have been on the opposite flat. Too, Suhl did not really hold w/ the Crown over N - Nitro stamp. It was more of a Z-M fetish.


I am again curious how you make the jump from 9X56R to 9X57R seeing 56mm was the max length of the chambering. Seeing the chamber cast might ferret out the demon cartridge.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Neat Square crossbolt. How 'bout an image of the other flat as well as one of the lower rib forward of the flats?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Jim,
The marks on the side of the barrel show the duty load for your rifle use a 308.6 grain steel jacketed bullet. This is a heavy bullet for the 9x57R. A more common modern bullet would be the 250 gr. and I believe it is easier to find a satisfactory load with a bullet lighter than the one the rifle was regulated for, than one heavier. Of course, each rifle is a law unto itself.
BTW, it looks like the scope mount on the drilling is some type of lever release slide on quick detachable mount. If you remove it, you might discover a maker or marketer's name. Just a thought.
Mike

Raimey,
The 9x56 on the other flat was half visible in the photo and if there was a date code under it, the date and ledger number would have been partially visible.
I didn't "make the jump" from 9x56R to 9x57R; the owner of the rifle identified it as 9x57R. I usually accept the owner's ID of the caliber, unless he says he isn't sure. Of course, sometimes I get bad info to start with and get "wrapped around the axle", but until that happens, I have to accept his info as being correct. If it turns out to not be a 9x57R, we can address that then. The markings on the barrel don't represent the nominal caliber of the rifle, until the 1939 proof law came into use.
Mike

Ford:

The Z-M datecode can be on the lower rib or elsewhere for that matter. But your posts regarding calibre seem to be conflicting in that on one hand you are describing to the millionth of a mm and the next one you are in the cm realm tossing them about like you are broadcasting Rye grass seed? So are we to hold with any numbers on the longarm regarding measurements?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse