March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 629 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,014
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#559503 12/01/19 09:29 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Looked at a nice 12 bore 2E the other day-- 30" LHC stamped barrels- half mood clips at muzzles- both tubes choked IMP/Mod--
Intact stock, POW grip, DT- ejectors in time, bores mint, barrels ring like the bells of Saint Mary's-- BUT-- on the right barrel side- where to top rib meets the barrel radius- for aprox. 7", from aprox. where the top rib expansion joint (silver filled) forward to the muzzle- you can see a solder separation line- you can get the tip of a toothpick into the "groove"--

So, with my good friend Brad Bachelder gone from this earth forever-- Can any of you gents advise me as to how much of a risk I might be taking if I buy this Smith?? Note, the rib separation only shows on the top rib--bores shine like a mirror-no pits or dents in the tubes anywhere- Many thanks-- RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
Runs, if I read your statement correctly and you stated approximately 7" from the muzzle, that top rib there should be free from solder there. I'm guessing someone re-soldered it and did not clean it up right.
The top rib extension at the breech was brazed.
Also I would have someone check the bores for honing, they should be .729-.730, especially on a gun that ended production in 1912.


David


Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
NOT from the muzzle- from the breech FORWARD towards the muzzles-RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
It still would not make a difference, it sounds as if the solder was not removed and you see the solder line.


David


Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
This would be a good candidate to check for barrel ringing. But, the ejectors would have to be removed to do so properly.

https://vicknairgunsmithing.blogspot.com/search?q=barrel+ringing

SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Interesting- never realized that the ejector "luggers" should be removed before "ringing" the barrels with a wooden dowel or hammer handle. Just wondering, Stan- does this also apply to an extractor gun? I usually suspend the tubes with a bungee cord over a padded bench (in case they slip out of the bungee hook-hasn't happened yet) and tap them with the wooden dowel (7/8" dia.) up and down on each tube and listen for the "chime"-- does my method compare to the one you use? RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
Yes, ejectors or extractors. Even a cocking slide on a set of Fox barrels can change what we're looking to hear clearly, according to Dewey.

I do as Dewey suggests and hang them by the hook from a wire loop, then use a good sized wooden dowel to tap them all along their length, listening for a dullness in the resulting "ringing".

Best wishes with the 2E.

SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Thanks, Stan. Somehow, I thought I read here, or possibly elsewhere, that Dewey was not big on L.C. Smiths-I read the article a while back in SS about a A.H. Fox he "customized"- He is, without a doubt, a master gunsmith, as was my good friend, the late Brad Bachelder-- We shall see- it is a local private sale, but until I do more research, I'm keeping my wallet intact.

You and I, and others here, have a fairly solid background in: welding, metal fabrication, machine shop and tool & die work--What is a bit puzzling to me is how a set of barrels can be soldered, but the lug and the breech area brazed, as both welding processes involve different degrees of heat input, in other wording, solder flows at a lower temp. than brazing rod. The slight crevice I spotted with a magnifier had the appearance of solder (silver-ish) and not the brass fill you would see with a brazed joint. I would welcome input from any of the well-informed gents on this forum--RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 277
Likes: 4
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 277
Likes: 4
Run

Could it be silver brazed? I occasionally use 56% silver solder/braze, soldering temp is around 1200 deg F.

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
You might be right there, amigo. Normal soldering temps, for mild steels, run in the 650 degree F range, brazing in the 800 degree F range (cast iron, especially sand cast with cope and drag pattern CI- closer to 900 degree F-- temperatures taken at the core of a neutral or balanced flame, with oxy-acetylene-- different temp scale if you are using either MAPP or propane for your fuel gas-- The only layman styled concept of barrel joining was what I read years ago in Peter Johnson's book on the Parker Gun--RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,850
Likes: 150
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,850
Likes: 150
Might just be a section of the rib that didn't fit the bbl contour very well right there and the gap betw the rib and the bbl surface ends up being filled with solder.
They're not all perfect,,far from it no matter the mfg'r.

The breech portion is brazed together, the brazed joint around the tubes and lumps you can usually see and some take on the vertigres (sp) green color.

Some Spanish and Belgian guns will silver solder (hard solder) everything together,,ribs, lugs, ect. Those bbl's are often hot salt blued and not effected by it.

Any ting of yellow coloration in that softsoldered area might be just hardened oil or whatever has been wiped over the bbls and has dried.
Take a razor blade or other sharp thin blade and touch the seam, you can soon tell if it's lead solder or not. It can also many times tell you if there is a break in the soldered seam there if it pushes thru.

The 'ringing of the bbl's' is OK but don't bet your house on it as a 100% reliable way of telling one way or another if the soldered seams are solid or not.
It'll generally sound off a loose rib (unsoldered on both sides) at the very end/tip of the muzzle or breech, or one up against the forend lug underneath as it rattles. They vibrate like a clarinet reed.
But a simple void on one side of the rib somewhere along the way with solid solder seams on either side of it,,and a solid seam on the opposite side of the same rib,,you won't hear any difference. Nothing to rattle.
I've had 6" of rib seam open and the bbl's chime very nicely.
Great test.

It's rare to have any set of tubes go into the rust blue water tank and not exhibit some small break in the solder seams somewhere. Sometimes just a small bubble leak, othertimes more than you'd care to see.
It's about 8 feet + of soft solder joint seam in a SxS bbl set. Not all the same contact area contour.
More than enough for the possibility of a bridge in the seam or a less than perfect fit resulting in a solder filler rather than a soldered seam.

Put on a magnifier and take a very close look at that suspect area. Push hard on the rib and see if it actually moves up and down.
A spot of oil along the seam is helpful as it will move in and out of the seam if it is not secure and the rib moves while pushing on it. Easy for you to see.

Resoldering an area like that is not difficult. The hardest part is getting it clean. Then just the smallest amt of flux and a thin bit of hammered out soft solder wire layed in there. Bring up the heat (indirect) and it will draw it right into the joint.
Clamp the ribs lightly along with the F/E lug. Not trying to re-position anything. Just hold orig position and add solder to the joint,,if that's what in fact it needs.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
Good question, Francis. My thought would be that the brazed joint was done first, then the soldering after. The lower heat required to solder wouldn't affect the brazed joint.

SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,720
Likes: 48
I agree with Kutter, I have seen barrels ring nicely but when checked with a .002 feeler gage it slips under the rib. I also believe that this was done at the factory and not on purpose, but you will find out on some ribs that they are not soldered all the way.


David


Kutter #559671 12/03/19 09:33 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Many thanks, K- your response makes sense, and is probably backed by solid research and years of experience with barrels and double guns--this 2E would be a private purchase, if I decide to pursue it further-- Hard to imagine being able to ring the barrels on a double at a local gun show- too crowded, and in my experience, many "dealers' don't their way around double guns. RWTF


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Kutter #559673 12/03/19 09:42 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158
Likes: 114
Interesting the term vertigres-- from the French-literally "Green Grease" You often see this on leather rifle/gun slings where the brass "Chicago screws" are fitted into the leather by the maker-

Makes sense, as those screws are brass, and the applied treatment/dressings used on leather interact with the brass, and cause that greenish looking result-Not found in our Webster's New World Second College Ed. Dictionary, however!!--RWTF

Last edited by Run With The Fox; 12/05/19 09:18 AM.

"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 51
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 51
IMO, if the rib soldering was done after the brazing, the soldering heat would have no effect on the previous brazing.

I usually get perfect ringing (on a gun with tight ribs) via simply hanging the barrels from a finger (with a thick pad placed an inch below the muzzles for safety) and knocking/striking the barrel(s) with a knuckle of the off hand.

Since I'm not adept at rib soldering, as long as the rib's not loose, I wouldn't fool with it.


.

Last edited by PeterMichael; 01/21/20 10:44 PM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 1.251s Queries: 46 (0.106s) Memory: 0.8819 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 07:21:33 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS