doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A good 20-something double?

The age old question was ask of me today, what's a good upland sxs double for no money ($500). I told him essentially...nothing these days for less than $1k, and more-like $1500. Was I wrong?

Yildiz is the only thing I could recommend to him, after having closely dealt with three of them in actual hunting use for about 7-8 years. Mine has been used yearly with not a single problem, other than initially having a hard trigger. Perfect regulation. Adult sized dimensions. Great handling dynamics.

$489

OMMV, SRH

Ok, thanks Stan. I'll look into that one.

Seeing lots of o/u's. They make sxs too?

How decent would a Ward's Western Arms 16 double be? Passable?

Yup- if it is a LeFever Nitro Special- 28" barrels. 2&3/4" chambers, DT-Ext. know of one for sale locally in 16 gauge- No 2 & No 4 chokes (M&F)- good solid bird gun (if you like a 16)--RWTF

Plus one on the 20ga Yildiz. Academy Sports carries them and they are out the door for less than $500...Geo

I really like the CZ Bobwhite 20 ga. I've killed more birds with one than anything else I've owned, from geese in Alberta to Sand Grouse in Namibia. I've had a couple, and have never had a reliability problem. They run around $600 with steel safe choke tubes.

Lloyd,
A bit of a one off, close, but, not exactly per your request:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101283792

Used little. Price is close. Gauge, too. I know a guy who has used a 12 gauge for most of 50 years, not beautiful, but, serviceable.

Bottom feeders best not be too picky.

Best,
Ted

Lloyd, I would let this go to a new shooter for $500 shipped.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...25&cdn_bp=1

$20 to Dave if it sells.

Stay far, far away from their O/U guns. I've never seen one yet that didn't have mechanical issues. The S x Ss that I have had dealings with are unbelievably reliable for a cheap gun. And, they look pretty darn good. They have a lightweight alloy action with steel internals that allows the mass in the gun to be on the ends, which belies the overall light weight and causes them to handle more like a real game gun than just a lightweight feather. The Turkish walnut is better than any base American walnut, and the internals are polished and finished to a degree that far outruns the price.

SRH

Lloyd, here is a link to the gun at the only company I am aware of that imports and retails them. They are available in other gauges and barrel lengths, according to individual store availability. Mine happens to be a .410 with 28" tubes.

https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/yildiz-410-side-by-side-break-open-shotgun#repChildCatid=1650831

And a link to the company webpage that shows what is available from the company.

http://www.yildizshotgun.com/tr/cifte_i.html

Best, SRH

Appreciate it Stan. The 12 is listed as 6.1 lbs(!). Only 1 trigger though...

A friend bought a couple of Yildiz 20ga O/Us a few years ago for his boys, and the guns have been trouble free. On sale, they were under $400 each and seem to be a great deal.

The wood on the Yildiz shotguns are worth as much as the 500 you pay for them.

The first year they were sold in America by Academy I bought a .410 sxs, a .410 O/U and a 28 gauge O/U and a 12 gauge sxs (with 4140 alloy steel action; zero trouble with any of them. Seems like I may have bought the 28 gauge the second year they were available as I had to find a store that had one of them as they were scarce.

Yeah, but it's a good one, not necessarily so on their O/U guns. I only did a trigger job to lighten the pull. It has never failed to function, and I've shot it on "hot" dove shoots, used it on quail and hauled in in my farm truck and killed poisonous snakes with it. Through it all, the trigger has functioned perfectly.

The degree of polish and workmanship on the trigger internals has to be seen to be believed. I was used to messing with vintage American doubles, and a very few British, but when I disassembled the Yildiz my jaw dropped. The parts are so well polished they all look like stainless. I was not prepared for what the technology employed can do without much manual labor. Amazing. Wish I had taken some good pics of the hammers. sears, etc. Hate to take a box lock apart just for pics, now.

Just a suggestion, SRH

The CZ Bobwhite is another well made durable Turkish gun with a MSRP of $655. It can be bought from various online sources. Academy is brick and mortar sales only and stores are in the South.
https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-bobwhite-g2/

I recently picked up a pretty decent Ithaca SKB Model 100 20ga for $850. They remain my nominee if you're talking best gun for the money under $1,000. They've been around for over 50 years now and have a solid track record. Miroku-made Charles Daly is another good choice under $1,000. Mark's Zephyr Woodlander might well get you the most bang for your buck at $500. Made by V. Sarasqueta, a good Spanish maker.

Another option would be a Miroku or Daly Model 500. I�ve acquired two around the $500.00 mark by trolling the net. A great upland gun for wing shooting.

Another thing to consider is if, in the event your friend hunts the low hanging fruit, all he really needs is a single shot 12Ga. Those can be had for $100.00 or less.

nca225: As a practical matter, you're right, a single shot that fits well and has a decent trigger will do the job all day long. However, this young man is interested in a double (and for all the reasons that presumably... the majority of us here are as well). I meet so-few young people that even give-a-hoot about such things. I'm hoping to have some good suggestions for him so he can walk the same trails that so-many of us here have walked to arrive at a point of appreciation for a good or "fine" double. The Miroku and/or the Daily are good suggestions, thank you for them.

I have no idea what a used one would be priced for now but I had a Richland Arms 707 (Italian built) 3"-20 gauge which was a very serviceable gun. My Son still has it. I hunted with it for several seasons, then bought my First Lefever so passed it down to my Son.

As already mentioned the Ithaca built Lefever Nitro Special or the Western Arms (Basically the same gun but with malleable Iron frame) are both stout serviceable guns. You are no apt to find a Lefever Arms Co 20 gauge within that price range if you do Latch on to it Pronto.

I'm with Larry in recommending the Ithaca 100. I have two of them and they are hard to find fault with, other than a lack of 2 triggers and high grade engravings.

You're welcome Lloyd. If I see one in my trolling I'll let you know.

I looked for a few of those, the guns that are out there at the moment have all been rode hard and put away wet. Good suggestion, but, it seems most of these were considered tools, and show it.
They are well built guns.

Best,
Ted

There is also the old Sears/J C Higgins double made for them by AyA. I don't remember the specific model, but someone here will chime in. These tend to be overlooked because of the Sears name.

Was that Sears gun called a "Matador"?

Weren't those AYA Matadors?

Another option that comes to mind is the TriStar 411.

Mark: I don't know how I missed your earlier post (except that I'm doing all this on my cellphone). That Stoeger is right on the target, as is possibly a CZ gun. I'll present both of those options to this young man and see how he responds. To the rest of you folks... Thankyou Kindly! It's kinda scary how much of this stuff I'd forgotten in the last year or so. This gun game is no-different than anything else. Either use that knowledge or lose it.

Lloyd, that's a good reason to visit this site frequently.

I think maybe you are referring to the JC Higgins model 100 which were made by AYA.

Look into some Husqvarna guns. I love em and they usually aren't much money. On the new screw in choke side I like my CZ bobwhite. The first one with case coloring on the reciever

If this link works here is one like Ted was speaking of (Rode Hard & Put Up Wet). When I bought mine back in 68, just before the ban on mail order, I chose it because it had double triggers, I liked the shape of the frame rear better than those "Tight" scallops & I had more confidence in the metallurgy of a cheap Italian gun than a cheap Spanish one.

I feel like I made the better choice, at least it suited me better. I would have preferred a straight grip & splinter forend, but in that price range, one couldn't be too choosy. As I recall in 1968I paid $129.95 for it. Ordered it through a Herter's sale catalog. List price was I believe $179.95.

I don't think Husky made many 20's.

I've had a couple of the Victor Sarasqueta guns imported by Stoeger. One of them was a Woodlander 20ga. They were obviously made to a price point, but they do not seem to have suffered from the soft steel issue that plagued other cheap Spanish imports. And it's good to avoid cheap Spanish doubles with single triggers. Although the Spanish put ST's on a lot of their guns they sent to the States back then, the Woodlander wasn't one of those. Pretty solid little gun. I also would have preferred a splinter and straight grip. As I recall, I bought mine off Gun List in the good old days. The 1961 Stoeger catalog listed it at $108. For $42 more, the same catalog offered a Bernardelli S. Uberto 1, and for $70 more, a West German-made Sauer 60. Of course if you wanted to buy American, a Stevens 311 was only $70.

I'm now looking closely at the new CZ Bobwhite G2. A redesign of the earlier gun (coil springs instead of leaves) with a reportedly narrower receiver and with a different (baked-on) finish, it's still a double-trigger, english stock and splinter design for an entry price of $650. 12s weigh 7lbs w/28 tubes and a 14 5/8 LOP. 20s are in the 6lb range.

I think that's a good choice. I bought one this year in 20 gauge and am very pleased with it. It has already accounted for several pheasants using Kent Bismuth. It came with a horrendous trigger pull on the right barrel but CZ took care of it in under 10 days under warranty. I bought it through Davidsons so didn't have a chance to try the trigger pulls in the store. The right barrel exceeded my digital trigger pull gauge. After that, no issues. They say the finish is black chrome, which seems to be common with Huglu guns.

Bruce

Bruce: what does your 20 tip the scales at?

It weights 6 pounds, 5 ounces with two A-Zoom snap caps in it.

Bruce

Bingo!

The gun Miller was referring to:

v



Kinda porky for a 20, but, it is a 3� chamber gun. Choked modified and improved modified, it really doesn�t fit the way I use a 20 gauge. I got some 3� ammunition with it. I haven�t fired a 3� round in 40 years, I�ll bet.

Mine hasn�t been put up wet, hasn�t been hunted at all. I have to work on that.


Best,
Ted

I wish the Turks would solve their trigger pull issues!

Agreed. The CZ is a Czech gun actually, but I believe I read somewhere that the barrels are made by Huglu(?). The best solution here is to buy one new and then immediately have CZ put the triggers right under their warranty. I did that with a Dickinson .410/28 a few years ago and it has been flawless since then.

I believe all of CZ's shotguns are Turkish, although I'm not sure they are all from Huglu. They are capable of making good guns provided someone rides herd over quality control. I also have a 12 gauge Ultralight O/U (6 pounds) that I bought as an experiment for use as a gunner in inclement weather for AKC hunt tests. I'm happy with that one, also. That single trigger is not bad.

Bruce

If you are willing to go used, the V. Bernardelli shotguns are excellent performers and can be had for relatively little money, particularly those with 25 inch barrels. I have owned a Gamecock 20 gauge since 1977 and it's served me well for over 40 years. The run around six pounds, have double triggers and extractors and seem trouble free.

They are a good choice, but you won't find one for $500. You'd be lucky to find a 20 in decent shape for under $1,000.
And don't get fooled when you're looking at Bernardellis. The P. Bernardellis are of lesser quality. The V. Bernies are the ones you want.

True, but the PBs fall into the right price range. Several of us bought a batch of PB SxS guns years ago when they were disappearing from the market. They were good values then, and would be good values now if you can find one. Contrary to rumors at the time that the PBs were being made in Turkey (Larry?), all the ones we got in 28, 20, and 12 ga were made in Italy. No one I know has ever had any problem with any gun out of that batch, all stamped for Cape Outfitters. And one guy used his PB 28 and 20 as his only dove guns for maybe 15 years.

Well....I'm probably going to try one of these CZ guns for my son. For the money I'm figuring it's a good gamble. It's arguably a step up from a lefty 870. I just wish I could see one before buying it first.

From looking at the factory video of the 12, it reminds me a bit of the Akus guns, and not the Huglu. The rounded action and the engraving makes me hope it's a trigger-plate gun, but...that seems unlikely.

Wish I knew a little bit more than just this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFWN1a1m6lM

I'll call CZ America tomorrow and confirm how they are going to deal with trigger issues. If they're reasonably accommodating on the subject, I'll fire up Gunbroker and then my credit card and... go from there.

Called CZ, triggers should be no problem, so...did the deal online...$575 shipped. This is too-easy.

Good luck. Your boy is a big kid, was there an option for a longer stock?

Best,
Ted

The center of double-gun manufacture in the world for the last 30 years has been Huglu (pronounced "who-lu") in Turkey. Face it. This is the modern Birmingham, Liege, Saint Etienne, Spain, whatever. They have the expertise, the labor, the wood. They get better and better. I've a lot of friends who recently were in the area and who brought back guns. As Stan says, for the price you can't beat them.

Wishing won't get anything done. Until they do, buy the gun for $489 and teach yourself to do a trigger job. People think about it as something deeply mysterious, or far and above the expertise of a hobby gunsmith. It's not. Trust me. And, the satisfaction that comes with making a great trigger out of a bad one is huge.

SRH

unskilled hans messin wid triggers souns like ah resipe fur disaster...

Stan: since CZ is willing to do it under warranty, I'll defer on this one. Ted: the recoil pad is reportedly a bit thin, so extra LOP (if needed) shouldn't be too-hard to gain. I'm guessing it's a draw-bolt gun, so cast might be a challenge(?). We'll probably have to cross that bridge later. Thinning or dishing the stock would likely be the only options here.

Nah you can bend a through bolt gun, I have bent a bunch of them.

I presume you bend behind the bolt only. I've got a rifle with a through bolt. I'd like to bend it, but there are only a few inches behind the bolt head.

I suppose you could replace the bolt with all-thread, bend the wood, then bend the all-thread to match and attach with a nut.

I'd be interested in your method, since I have some application for it.

No not at all, the bend happens in the wrist as usual. You may have to add some relief in the hole on the direction of the bend. The biggest change is that the cheeks of the stock need to be clamped together or they just spread apart and the stock does not bend. Most people over think this one.

I agree, Lloyd. In your case that is the first course of action. I wouldn't be surprised if they refuse to get it under 6 lbs. Dickinson won't.

Regardless what ed thinks, trigger work is a skill that can be learned. No one is born knowing how. An acetylene torch in unskilled hands is also a recipe for disaster, huh ed?

SRH

Mine measured about 5 pounds when they returned it to me. The left barrel came in at about 5. No, they aren't going to give you probably what you would like, but then, you can either do what Stan advises or send it to someone you trust. Since I only have around 15 rounds through my gun, I'm confident they will lighten up with use.

Bruce

Stan: That's a shame. Good wingshooting requires good triggers, period. I had to fight a bit with the Dickenson service guy, but he finally saw it my way and put the triggers down in the 3 1/2 - 4 lb range (per Mark Reynold's trigger gauge). I had asked for 3 and 3 1/2. The gun weighs only 5 1/2 lbs and anything heavier causes me to rotate it when firing.

Another reason for buying this gun now is the current political climate. I spoke at length with the vendor about his shipping and FFL requirements and he gave me an earful about doing business in some of the more-difficult states (California, New York, Maryland, etc.). I've got all the guns I'll likely ever need going forward, but my son doesn't (quite yet). I'm also wondering just how long CZ (and others) will be making such a product available to consumers here. For such short money, I figured "why not".

I had a local 'smith do the trigger work for a fair price on my first generation CZ Bobwhite 28 ga. There's nothing exotic about the innards. Gil

3 1/2# - 4# is pretty good on a hunting gun, Lloyd. Glad yours turned out so good. Were you talking to the actual service man, or a representative for Dickinson? The reply I got was from a rep. who told me to send it back and put a note in the box saying that he said to lighten them to 6#.

If I had one that needed lightening I'd just send it to Phillip Crenwelge and be done with it. I do simple triggers myself, but have never done a trigger plate action, so Phillip would get the nod on it.

SRH

I actually tracked down the gentleman that did the work. I've since tried to find his contact info but....no luck. This was 3-4 years ago now, so maybe he'd not been given the company line on trigger-pull weights yet?
Six pounds is just ridiculous on a 5-lb gun. Any decent British game gun is right around 3 1/2 to 4 pounds of pull.

Got the gun yesterday. Seemed pretty decent in an overall sense. I'm used to a bit more refinement in a double but I wasn't disappointing by the weight or even the fit and finish. The triggers weren't great but they seemed serviceable (nice break, no creep). Did my background check, looked at a sweet & light little Verny Carron 16 for $2700 that somebody had buggered the screws on (damn shame!) and brought the $600 Bobwhite home. Took it up to a buddy's house this morning to put a trigger gauge on it. Front trigger broke at 6 1/2 lbs, the back trigger exceeded the 8-lb scale(!). Extrapolating past the 8-lb point on the RCBS unit, it let go around roughly 9 1/2 lbs. Oh well...thank goodness for the free shipping and service option. Other than the triggers...I'm still impressed. The action body is significantly smaller and less-blocky than the earlier Bobwhite versions I'd seen, and the barrels aren't excessively heavy either, even with the choke tubes ( I had a DeHaan Huglu 20 bore in the late 90s that couldn't make that claim). At the reportedly 7.3 lbs (haven't properly weighed it just yet) it's a pretty serviceable 12-gauge. Once the triggers have been put right, it would be fair to call it the doublegun equivalent of a Remington 870. This gun in 20, at nearer the 6-lb mark could be a fairly serious upland birdgun I suspect.

Please let us know how the deal turns out when you send it back to get the triggers improved. Glad you like it overall.

Best wishes, SRH

Thanks Stan. It's a Christmas present for a rather big 15-year old so...the triggers will likely now have to wait until after the holidays. Reports on CZ's service center in Topeka have been very positive. Might get to use it on January pheasants yet, if we're lucky. Sitting here and just now remembering a Bobwhite in 28 that I actually bought back in the 2013-14 timeframe (before my Dickenson .410/28). It went right back into the shipping case and was returned because it was just so-tanky and poorly balanced IMHO (I had it for only a few hours so I'd almost forgotten it). This one doesn't seem to suffer from those flaws.

Falling into the FWIW category, I have two vintage Foxes where I got the original work order cards. Both specified trigger pulls of 4 lbs. Both guns were small bores and double trigger guns.

A bit of a follow-up on this post. I contacted CZ after Christmas and they emailed me the FedEx label and return authorization. Work and travel interfered for a bit but I finally got it sent out on January 20th. I asked for 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 pounds of pull, boxed it up and sent it off. FedEx dropped it off at the house today (20 days exactly). Opened it up, assembled it with some snap caps and.....now much better. Good clean breaks with no creep. Don't have a trigger gauge available but I'd guess that they came fairly close. Not bad for zero cost and a 20-day turn. I'm hoping to get it out with my son and try it out sometime next weekend.

Total investment in this now seemingly-respectable 12-bore double is a little under $600. Splinter and straight grip BLNE, two triggers, choke tubes and steel tolerant.

Glad you stepped the lad up to a 12, Lloyd. He is certainly man enough for it.
Best of luck with the new gun.

Best,
Ted

Luck is a big part of it Ted. He's recently discovered girls...

It could be worse.

I left hunting for a few years to sow some oats. Got right back to it, however. The prospect of my own dog, and my own guns, my own car and my own trips all played a part. It would be many years before I found a woman who wasn�t overrated.
My Dad passing taught me how few hunting partners I had, or, needed.

See you guys soon.

Best,
Ted

Does anyone have contact info for Phillip Crenwelge?

I'm with Larry with regards to SKB 100s. A 12 gauge with 25.5" barrels will go for less than the 20 gauges usually.

I believe Phillip's number is 210-313-5988. Great trigger work.

Went out and shot the new Bobwhite today. My boy took to it like a duck to water. Like any brand-new gun, it's a bit stiff to operate and the "luggers" take a bit of getting used to as well but everything worked darn fine. Using some cheap Remington target loads (w/fairly shap recoil!) we wacked a few clays. We then walked the dog and looked at a parts car for his 60 Mopar forward-looker. All in all a very good day.

You find a parts car for that ride you better buy it, complete.


Best,
Ted

Well....

Not the same car, by any means, but reminds me so much of the 1958 Plymouth Fury, "Christine".

'60 Dodge. Pretty cool.

SRH

Thanks Stan. The probable recipient of all the donor parts (it's good side) on an late October day...



A slant 6, pushbutton wonder. Good kid project car, but still needs lots of work.