doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Traits of a pigeon gun?

I was able to participate in a Live Bird shoot in Colonia Caroya near Cordoba, Argentina several years ago. The event was small maybe 30 or so shooters over two rings. The boxes were the iron drop down sort where a kid rolled a botchi ball into it should the pigeon balk.
The shooters were mostly Italian decent and largely farmers.
The entrance fee was reasonable $20 or so and you bought pigeon tickets for two bucks that went to the guy that owned the birds.
The guns were mostly SxS's and very classy although I didn't want to look a fool by examining any. The grounds were manicured like a golf course with a nice kiosk that served lomitos (sandwich) beer, wine and soft drinks.
I was greeted warmly and the word was passed that this was now an International Tournament! I had brought my 32TC for such an occasion, bought a 10 pack of Italian pigeon loads (NO BS here) and headed to my first trap. I got the 32 ready called "listo" then heard a big clunk as the box opened on the left side of the field--I made my shot and hit the bird square! This advanced me to the second field where I totally let the excitement take over-I missed my second bird. I was allowed one more miss to stay in the running. I got set-up for my third bird, it showed--it was a pure white pigeon! It flew low and in front of the white painted wall/sign, I missed again. All agreed that the white bird was a real tough break!
I got a beer and a terrific memory!

It is worth noting that turn-of-the-century Pigeon Guns mostly had straight stocks, which were occasionally referred to as a "Pigeon Stock".

1894 ad for the Smith Pigeon Gun



Things started changing after Fred Gilbert won both the First DuPont Grand Smokeless Championship Handicap Live-bird Tournament October 1895 and the �E.C.� Powder Co. (Target) Tournament May 1896 with a Smith. The �Fred Gilbert Specifications� were for a drop at comb of 1 3/8 inches; at the heel, 2 inches; length from trigger to heel, 14 1/4 inches; trigger to toe 14 1/2 inches; and trigger to center of butt 14 inches; with a full pistol grip and 30-inch full choke barrels; very "modern" dimensions.

Guns, shotshells and loads at the 1895 DuPont shoot



Dimensions of the 1897 Tournament grade; DAC 1 3/4� & DAH 1 13/16�; from Sporting Life June 26 1909



Jay Graham won Gold at the 1912 Olympic games with a straight stock Remington Pump



As late as this 1923 ad Trap models still had straight stocks

William Bruce Leffingwell, The Art of Wing Shooting: A Practical Treatise on the Use of the Shotgun, 1895
http://books.google.com/books?id=e34EmE3tkfkC
The king of all pigeon shooters is �Capt. Jack� (John L.) Brewer of Philadelphia.
Mr. Brewer said to the author:
�The secret of pigeon shooting is to kill the birds quickly, they must not be permitted to become hard birds; the quicker the first barrel is fired the better, and the second must follow before the bird is forty yards from the shooter. I can't say that I admire these long kills, because the fact that a man makes a long kill shows that he was slow in the use of the first or second barrel, and that won't do in pigeon shooting.�
�A pigeon gun should be a modified choke � both barrels. The first barrel being bored a little closer than a cylinder, and the second a little more open than a full choke. Bored in that manner, the first barrel will kill the bird within from thirty-five to thirty-seven yards, and the second up to forty yards, and the pigeon ought not be permitted to get beyond that distance when the second barrel is fired. A man must take every legitimate advantage in pigeon shooting. A modified choke gives that advantage, and when a man uses a full choke he handicaps himself.�
�A gun for pigeon shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to anywhere under 8 pounds. It should be heavy at the breech, with a long and very straight stock, having a drop from 2 to 2 1/2 inches at the butt. These straight stocks are desirable, because they cause one to shoot high, something which is essential, as there is a tendency to undershoot, and nearly every pigeon is missed by shooting under or behind. A pigeon gun should be bored to shoot a trifle high. Birds going from the trap are almost invariably rising, and as there is an almost uncontrollable tendency to aim at a straight-away bird, one should hold a trifle over.�

Brewer who stood very straight, which was atypical then

Probably back in the 1970s, I saw an E grade Lefever which was likely a Piegon gun. It was 12 gauge 30" barrels, straight stock & no Safety. It did not appear to have ever had a safety IF the slot had been welded it was a fantastic job with no visible evidence.

Unfortunately, the wood at least had been refinished & whoever did it rounded over every corner & when it didn't fit up properly had filled in the gaps with plastic wood. It made one just want to cry to see such a gun ruined like that. It had a price tag on it as if it were in superb condition so I left it in the rack.

More turn-of-the-century pigeon gun dimensions

In Feb. 1898, C.W. Budd received on consignment a Parker $400 AAH Pigeon Gun SN 87449 with 30� Whitworth barrels F/F and 2 7/8� chambers. LOP was 14� and DAH 2 1/4� with a pistol grip stock and no safety. It weighed 7# 12 oz.

April 18, 1908 Thomas S. Dando, Gun Editor Sporting Life
The generally accepted drop of stock in a pigeon gun is from 2 to 2 1/4 inches. If the gun is more crooked, you can not handle it so quickly. This is especially true with fast birds. In England, where the birds are much faster, the guns are straighter yet. You could learn to shoot a straight-stocked gun in two or three afternoons and you would never use a crooked one again.

Parker #150583, a CHE with 32" Acme steel barrels, 2 7/8" chambers, no safety, �extra full comb�, and Silvers pad was completed for J.H. Anderson August 6, 1909 with a straight grip, DAC 1 7/16�, DAH 2 1/4� and LOP 15�.

Dr. William A. Bruette, Guncraft: Guns, Ammunition, Wing & Trap Shooting, 1912 �Hints on Trapshooting�
https://books.google.com/books?id=5g51K93as84C&pg=PA159&dq
A close shooting gun is necessary for trap shooting. It must be heavy enough to handle a larger load than is used in the field, without excessive recoil, for it is not unusual to fire a couple of hundred shots in an afternoon at the traps. A good duck gun will answer all of the requirements of the average trap shooter, as it is usually closely bored and heavy enough to take up the recoil. However, if the gun is to be purchased especially for trap shooting, let it be a twelve gauge, 7 1/2 to 8 pounds in weight, with barrels at least thirty inches long. Some of the best shots use 32 to 34 inches. The stock should be longer than that used in the field, as the gun is placed at the shoulder before the word to pull is given, and also straighter, for the clay target usually is rising when fired at. The drop of stock used by trap shooters varies from 1 3/8 to 1 5/8 at the comb and 2 to 2 3/4 inches at the heel, the length of arm depending upon the arms of the shooter.
Trap shooters, even those with thick faces, are partial to stocks thicker and fuller in the comb than those used in the field. In the field a man shoots with his head more or less erect, but the trap shot glues his face close to his stock, and the latter should be of such size and contour that when the shooter's cheek is resting firmly on the stock his eye is looking straight down the barrel. His cheek tells him that his eye is looking right and he swings his gun into place with his right hand, for the hand without conscious thought will always follow the eye.
Therefore, to recapitulate, the gun for trap shooting should weigh from 7 1/2 to 8 pounds, be of twelve gauge, full choke, with a straighter and longer stock and a fuller comb than that ordinarily used for field shooting.

Stan, no, it was a 32� Model 21. Prob not the same fellow or date. There are lots of very good pigeon shooters from PA.

I don't know what the "old days" were at Malloy's, but two guys I can think of that shot heavy 32" Model 21s at pigeons were J.B. "Cap" Grier and Howard Miller. But they shot a while back, probably when Jon Kruger was in diapers. I own J.B. Grier's Model 21 and it will still kill a pigeon. Oddly, Howard's Model 21 and Cap Grier's gun were consecutively numbered.

buzz, do you know if Jon won the shoot at Malloy's before he had the accident with the exploding ping pong balls, or after?

SRH

After

I'd tend to agree buzz. But from the replies thus far, it seems that you could call a lever action .30-30 a pigeon gun if you felt so inclined. Come to think of it, I shot quite a few pigeons with a Daisy CO2 pistol that I brought into a steel mill years ago, because they were shitting all over the overhead cranes I had to repair. PETA would not have approved.