doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT Force breaking a dog

I've followed the English dog game for a number of years (my present Lab was imported from Scotland and has 3 British Nat'l champs in her prior 3 generations - a lot better bred than I am). I'm not aware of the British force breaking dogs; as was said earlier, if the dog isn't natural, get another dog. Is it any wonder that the classified ads in Gun dog and Ducks Unlimited mags are filled with ads for British dogs? Because they are natural, they are a helluva lot easier for the average weekend warrior to train. BTW, there is a growing wave of sentiment to outlaw the use of electric training collars in the UK. With a collar, you can make a chihuawa (sp?) into a retreiver, but it sure won't be natural, and its offspring won't be any better

What a bunch a hooey!!!

Just about EVERY Hunting retriever has that is in competition or running serious hunt testing, has been Forced Fetched!

I've trained retrievers for over 15 yrs, and a training program based on force fetch is prety standard proceedure these days!

A good sorce of information is from a guy by the name of Mike Lardy---Totalretriever.com His training methode sare considered the gold standard among retriever enthusiasts.

Force fetch is much more than teaching a dog to retrieve. It will acomplish that, and you will have a very dependable retriever. BUT, it also teaches a dog about pressure and how to handle it. It bulids a much more confident animal that understands you and its work!!

Force fetch is the foundation of most all modern retriever training!


By the way.. James Lamb Free's book is horribly dated.

Gooser

I'm not aware of the British force breaking dogs; as was said earlier, if the dog isn't natural, get another dog. Is it any wonder that the classified ads in Gun dog and Ducks Unlimited mags are filled with ads for British dogs? Because they are natural, they are a helluva lot easier for the average weekend warrior to train. BTW, there is a growing wave of sentiment to outlaw the use of electric training collars in the UK. With a collar, you can make a chihuawa (sp?) into a retreiver, but it sure won't be natural, and its offspring won't be any better



Unbelievable!! absolute NONSENSE!!!!!!!!


Most GOOD retrievers are Natural!! Thats why they call em retrievers. What FF does is make the act of retrieveing a command instead of a request!! It builds on that Natural retrieving instinct!

Weather situations that get to Miserable conditions, or a wind that is crossing to a path of a blind retrieve will show real fast what RETRIEVER has been FF'd or one that Hasnt!!

what about a dog that has been sent to retrieve a cripple first, with other birds down in the field? You want the cripple retrieved first, right?? A FF'd dog will understand this pressure, and retrieve that cripple flawlessly with a ton of confidence! He will understand to "go where sent" with no questions asked---EVER!!! A very dependable animal!! He will not be distracted when he has a bird in mouth by other birds falling as he returns> He will complete his required task,, then take on the next!! The Un FF'd dog will assuredly spit the 1st bird out and be distracted by the otheres!

FF is a crticle tool in the trainers tool box. It is by no means cruel if done correctly.

Same goes for E-Collars. The real problem with E-Collars is with the guys that use the "burn and learn" rule with their dogs. There is a proper method of conditioning a dog to a collar, and its NEVER unpleasant for the dog! Both my dogs go nuts when they see the collar come out cause they know its time to work and they enjoy it! In fact my younger puppy will retrieve the collar and bring it to me and wait at the door to go!!

A dog that has been correctly collar conditioned is a dog that will only be "corrected" on a command he has been first TAUGHT!!!
_E-stimulation is only a very mild corection with very limited response action from a dog!

If you see a person who has their dog E-Collared and the dog is giving a serious vocal respose from correction , that is a trainer that needs that collar shoved up his you know what!!
You can train a dog the "amish" way,,but in most retriever circles these days FF is a constant!
Totalretriever.com has all the information you need.

Gooser

FF is a normal way to train for field trials and in hunting dogs as well in some cases. Blackdog is spot on this point. Some may find it not for them. Fine. I do not bob my dogs tail or ears but others do. It is not a lazy way to make a dog fetch or even a faster way to get the job done. It is only another tool to be used when needed.

A bad FF training job can ruin a dog just like any other bad training can ruin a dog. It is not abuse as some feel it is if done in a normal way. Trainers do not want to or need to abuse a dog to get it to follow directions. They just want to build a reflex response and FF is one proven method of doing this.

Years ago I had to FF a friends dog which refused to fetch or hold a duck. This dog was going to be put down by the owner if it did not respond. It had had several trips to other trainers and was deemed to be a hopeless case. The dog's bad luck was to be owned by a fellow who would have rather put the dog down than find a home or admit that he could not train the dog. E-colors had made this dog a real mess and I used gentle pressure instead of a E color.

Four days of easy lessons taught this dog what it needed to do and it did it willing and happily. The job does not have to be cruel or abusive and a few easy lessons can make all the difference in the world with a few dogs.

The dog went on for seven or eight years as a fine hunting dog with almost no problems. All right, I will admit that the dog loved hard boiled eggs and would fart for hours after eating a few or even just one. The smell was very nice if you were a dead skunk. I only gave him a few over the years but the owner was a rather suspicious type of fellow. Seemed to think that I was a bad influence on the dog.

Dogs trained as robots can't match dogs trained to use their senses independently of their owners. Field trial performers do well---I've had them, too--- but many times neither hunter or dog knows where a cripple or fallen is; a wave in the general direction to hunt 'em out is better than arm-waving, electronics and whistles.

I've found that nothing beats a happy, hell-for-leather bulldozer doing what comes naturally. As for refusing to hold a duck, I can't see any use for it unless to take pictures. My current Lab has a habit of delivering ducks, cripples first, without commands to the toe of my left boot ---piling up 11 blacks and mallards after a three-shot rally last year.

Gooser, I agree on James Lamb Free. Sexist, too. But the ingredients are there. I'm a disciple now of beginning training at 49 days. Anyway, everyone to their own. One size doesn't fit all. From what I've seen of forced training, it isn't for me. My dog's heart and nose are magic, far better than mine.

Right. Force fetch is the common training method for dogs being run in intense and artificial competitions. It is the method of choice for pro trainers who have to guarantee results in a limited amount of time. It is used by people who insist on absolute control over their dogs at all times. And it works, if that's what you want.

But FF is not a panacea. It will not make a dog a better hunter, just a more obedient one. I have seen too many FF'd dogs in competition who were so controlled by their professional handlers that they were incapable of independent hunting judgment.

Yes, there are superb dogs that have been FF'd. And dogs that have been greatly improved through intelligent and consistent FF training. But I have also seen FF'd dogs in competition, trained and handled by pros, that couldn't find a hen in a chicken coop without handling, and dogs afraid to take a step without checking with their handler.

There are other training methods that are equally effective, but they take more time and patience, and are not focused on competition and pressure. Ultimately, the "right" training method depends on your dog, your skills, and the results you want. Personally, I prefer a dog that wants to hunt for me, over one who feels he has to.

I agree with Mr. Brown. Give me a natural dog anytime. Today's field trials can't be considered anything close to a typical day's hunt. They have evolved into a booby-trapped endurance course in order to sort out entry lists of 100 or so dogs. My Scottish lady has about 1200 retrieves behind her, works as a therapy dog at Detroit Children's Hospital and never has been FFed. The Brits must be doing something right, since more and more kennels are proudly advertising British dogs.

Amen.

Further, you won't ever see any 110#+ true British labs; the US market created these beasts, along w/ the wildly off standard color variations, all by itself. I suppose there's nothing wrong w/ them - just not my 'cup of tea'.

Get you one of these and you can leave the dog at home...

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Ce5tAAA...ions#PPA1963,M1

But I have also seen FF'd dogs in competition, trained and handled by pros, that couldn't find a hen in a chicken coop without handling, and dogs afraid to take a step without checking with their handler.


UNREAL!!!!
A Field trial dog or a HUNT TEST dog (big difference) will not be succesful in competition or testing if handled at ALL on marks. Handleing is used for Blind retrieves only!! I guess I cant argue what you have "SEEN" But I bet that dog wasnt placed or passed in either situation. Highly undesirable!! There is no fear in a correctly FF'd dog!!--Only confidence and reliablity.

Quote:
Further, you won't ever see any 110#+ true British labs; the US market created these beasts, along w/ the wildly off standard color variations,

Horse pucky!!Desirable weights(not saying there wont be larger) for AMERICAN bred Field trail dogs run from 65 to 75 #'s for males and 50-60#'s for Females. Very slim and athletic
The SHOW RING is what developed the Heavy set labs,, and if you look at the pedigree of those SHOW dogs,, you will find a heavy dose of English lines!! This is exactly why you wont see American FT dogs in the show ring--they dont meet the show standard!