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#554062 - 09/03/19 12:37 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: pamtnman]
BrentD Offline
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Gaintwist works, but be sure you are comfortable with the steel alloy that Colerain is using for your barrel. Perhaps that is not an issue, but it may be.
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#554143 - 09/03/19 10:30 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: Stan]
pamtnman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stan
That should be close to right, but only testing will prove what it likes best.

Testing is fun. My crossticks gun was tested for load using a 25X Lyman LWBR scope, which was then removed and the sight bar for the Redfield aperture sight was mounted using the same holes the scope bases utilized, leaving no unsightly holes in the top barrel flat.

Brings back memories.

SRH

That is cool as heck, Stan. Those would be fantastic memories. At my end, I struggle to hit the bullseye at 75 yards, and I have a great no-flinch followthrough. Maybe that 25X moon telescope could help
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#554144 - 09/03/19 10:36 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: BrentD]
pamtnman Offline
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Originally Posted By: BrentD
Gaintwist works, but be sure you are comfortable with the steel alloy that Colerain is using for your barrel. Perhaps that is not an issue, but it may be.

Yeah, you know, Brent, I just became aware of this 12L14 alloy issue. Never would have dawned on me that modern day barrel making could involve a steel with questions attached to it. I spent a lot of time today reading up on this, and it does seem that the 12L14 steel is suitable to black powder and not to smokeless. We have Colerain barrels on our flintlocks, and never had an issue. Very accurate, dimensionally correct. It does make me wonder if I should ask Scott at Colerain to make this .62 barrel out of 4140 or some other more rugged steel. The charges in the .62 rifle barrel will be substantial. They will test that steel. Hmmmmmmmmmm
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#554164 - 09/04/19 07:34 AM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: pamtnman]
craigd Offline
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I'd think it's good to be aware, but I think there would be so much more to barrel making and putting it together to become part of a rifle, than just one small part of the whole picture. It's not related the proposed rifle, but there's a well documented single shot rifle that was featured in Precision Shooting magazine and shown on line. It has a cut rifled gain twist barrel made out of rebar. The point being, it was a stunt, but put together with a high level of expertise and seems to have turned out to be quite a shooter. I personally have no plans to commission a custom muzzle loading barrel, but to a large extent I think confidence would come more from experience and reputation. On the surface, 4140 is a no brainer, but there are probably more than a few of those that have blown or not shot very well.

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#554244 - 09/04/19 10:45 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: craigd]
pamtnman Offline
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Originally Posted By: craigd
I'd think it's good to be aware, but I think there would be so much more to barrel making and putting it together to become part of a rifle, than just one small part of the whole picture. It's not related the proposed rifle, but there's a well documented single shot rifle that was featured in Precision Shooting magazine and shown on line. It has a cut rifled gain twist barrel made out of rebar. The point being, it was a stunt, but put together with a high level of expertise and seems to have turned out to be quite a shooter. I personally have no plans to commission a custom muzzle loading barrel, but to a large extent I think confidence would come more from experience and reputation. On the surface, 4140 is a no brainer, but there are probably more than a few of those that have blown or not shot very well.

good point; i know of no Colerain barrels rupturing
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#554382 - 09/06/19 06:29 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: pamtnman]
pamtnman Offline
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OK so Scott Keller at Colerain writes in an email today:"I would not recommend 12L14 for smokeless powder, but it is well suited to black powder and in my 30 years here we have heard of no ruptures of Colerain barrels."


Edited by pamtnman (09/08/19 07:48 PM)
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#554413 - 09/07/19 11:04 AM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: pamtnman]
keith Offline
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It does seem counter-intuitive that a lighter lower velocity load would have better penetration than a load using a heavy charge of black powder. At some point though, with pure lead round balls, the higher velocity expands the ball so much in flesh that sectional density is totally out the window, and penetration is lessened. I noticed that a higher velocity very expanded lead round ball did a lot of damage and dropped deer quickly. But often the flattened ball would be found under the hide on the off side rather than leaving an exit hole. With less than perfect shot placement, having only an entrance hole makes much less of a blood trail, even though there may be massive hemorrhaging internally.

Everything about muzzleloading involves compromise. A lead round ball isn't moving very fast under the best of circumstances. If you try pushing the limits on range, they start dropping rapidly after 125 yards or so, and reducing velocity permits them to drop more at longer ranges. Once you sight in at say 100 yards, try moving the target back to 125, 150, and 175 yards to see the impressive amount of drop. But that's not really a problem in most Pennsylvania woods hunting.

And if you are missing deer with that .54 flintlock, one thing to remember is that a roundball from a muzzloader is not as well stabilized as a bullet from a high velocity rifle. It doesn't take much to deflect a roundball. I've missed a few shots at standing deer when I had a perfect hold and trigger squeeze. In every case, if I looked hard enough, I'd find that I nicked a small branch or sapling between me and the deer. The amount of deflection is much greater if the branch you hit is closer to you than the deer. So pick an opening carefully when shooting in the brush... which is about 90% of the time. This is just part of what makes hunting with a flintlock more of a challenge. For some beginners, half the battle is just getting it to go off, even when it isn't raining. And if you are getting any delay to speak of between pulling the trigger and having the gun go off, then you are doing something wrong. That flintlock ignition delay is an old wives tale. The difference between a flintlock and a percussion is mere milliseconds if you are loading correctly and have a good lock, frizzen, and flint. Any appreciable ignition delay gives too much time for your sights to wander off target.
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#554414 - 09/07/19 11:23 AM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: pamtnman]
SKB Offline
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I agree with what keith just posted about round ball penetration with pure lead balls. If you want better penetration try a 1:20 lead tin alloy. Full penetration on this buck using 90 grains of 2F Swiss, the hardened ball hit at the base of the neck where it joins the right shoulder and exited the left rear leg. This rifle is a 14 bore belted ball percussion gun by Wm Moore. Conventional wisdom says it should not shoot, twist rate is 1:32 but it shoots just fine.



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#554506 - 09/08/19 07:56 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: keith]
pamtnman Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
Posts: 161
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Originally Posted By: keith
It does seem counter-intuitive that a lighter lower velocity load would have better penetration than a load using a heavy charge of black powder. At some point though, with pure lead round balls, the higher velocity expands the ball so much in flesh that sectional density is totally out the window, and penetration is lessened. I noticed that a higher velocity very expanded lead round ball did a lot of damage and dropped deer quickly. But often the flattened ball would be found under the hide on the off side rather than leaving an exit hole. With less than perfect shot placement, having only an entrance hole makes much less of a blood trail, even though there may be massive hemorrhaging internally.

Everything about muzzleloading involves compromise. A lead round ball isn't moving very fast under the best of circumstances. If you try pushing the limits on range, they start dropping rapidly after 125 yards or so, and reducing velocity permits them to drop more at longer ranges. Once you sight in at say 100 yards, try moving the target back to 125, 150, and 175 yards to see the impressive amount of drop. But that's not really a problem in most Pennsylvania woods hunting.

And if you are missing deer with that .54 flintlock, one thing to remember is that a roundball from a muzzloader is not as well stabilized as a bullet from a high velocity rifle. It doesn't take much to deflect a roundball. I've missed a few shots at standing deer when I had a perfect hold and trigger squeeze. In every case, if I looked hard enough, I'd find that I nicked a small branch or sapling between me and the deer. The amount of deflection is much greater if the branch you hit is closer to you than the deer. So pick an opening carefully when shooting in the brush... which is about 90% of the time. This is just part of what makes hunting with a flintlock more of a challenge. For some beginners, half the battle is just getting it to go off, even when it isn't raining. And if you are getting any delay to speak of between pulling the trigger and having the gun go off, then you are doing something wrong. That flintlock ignition delay is an old wives tale. The difference between a flintlock and a percussion is mere milliseconds if you are loading correctly and have a good lock, frizzen, and flint. Any appreciable ignition delay gives too much time for your sights to wander off target.

When I hunted with a .45 flintlock, it took a while, like ten years, to realize that most of my misses were in fact hits, and that following up the deer was the only way to determine what happened. The only two deer I brought to hand with a flintlock were both killed with that .45, and each had a story associated with it.
The .54 has only been fired at deer a few times, and they were long shots, around 100 yards or farther. This is because I tend to be the "dog" or driver pushing deer to the standers, and they get the close shots. Usually I am shooting at an old doe who peeled off from the herd and went sideways, or starting back against the drive.
Ignition and timing are not an issue with this gun. Bill Slusser re-worked the Chambers Siler lock and made it fire instantaneously.
Come to think of it, I do not think I have ever tried to shoot at a target beyond 100 yards with any flintlock....it is worth a try, just as you say, to get a feel for the drop. Just in case there's a Hail Mary to be made on the last day of a long cold season.
Thanks again for all the great advice and help!
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#554508 - 09/08/19 08:11 PM Re: Gain Twist...does it work [Re: SKB]
pamtnman Offline
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Registered: 03/15/15
Posts: 161
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Originally Posted By: SKB
I agree with what keith just posted about round ball penetration with pure lead balls. If you want better penetration try a 1:20 lead tin alloy. Full penetration on this buck using 90 grains of 2F Swiss, the hardened ball hit at the base of the neck where it joins the right shoulder and exited the left rear leg. This rifle is a 14 bore belted ball percussion gun by Wm Moore. Conventional wisdom says it should not shoot, twist rate is 1:32 but it shoots just fine.


Wow, Steve, that is a heck of a fine picture, thank you for sharing it. In every way. Nice mule deer, great original British sporting rifle...nice going. Send it in to DGJ. One thing about those British sporting arms from the 1850s-1890s is that they did all kinds of things that conventional wisdom and maybe physics said they shouldn't do. As you might remember (you sent me an early Lancaster bullet to study), I have aggregated a bunch of British double rifles in BPE and early nitro, and I have been experimenting for four years with every kind of mix of powder, wadding, and bullet alloy in each. Basically re-creating the wheel, but in terms I can understand and apply. This afternoon was another experimentation with a .450 BPE, comparing modern greased felt wads to Dacron, each over a Walter's vegetable fiber wad, and a mere two-grain increase in Olde Eynsford 1.5FG. Dacron wins again, hands-down, guessing because of powder compression. But the Brits used grease felt and "greased cloth" wads over the powder in their cartridges, some of them pretty thick, like 1/4", as opposed to the 1/16" and 1/8" thick felt wads and 0.030"- 0.060" fiber wads we mostly use today. And in fact, the two grains increase in charge actually meant something to the gun. Surprised me. I really do not know much! Nice to have help here. Thanks, guys!

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