doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

I think that few, if any, gunmakers made their own cases. The gunmakers left that to the case makers.....


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Gene, are you sure that first pic is of a mahogany wood case? Sure looks like pine to me.

SRH

After I posted it I said to myself, "That sure is a broad grained piece of lumber and can't be Mahogany." It's from SN 16585. But no one will notice who hasn't lived in pine forests in Georgia or Florida.

I don't know of pine being used on gun cases. I think it is oak. I guess I should have concentrated on the little round center handle in those cases as the focus of interest.

Haven't been able to find the H&H Payne movie Bushveld talked about. I'm now researching all sorts of stuff for a project 5512. But did look at numerous videos on the net including this one, an H&H video which is very modern. The barrels are assembled with rib soldered in...no engraving yet...stacked up...being fitted to the action...and not blacked. Researching further - doesn't mean it wasn't done back in the 1880's. David Travaillon said there is a group in Birmingham which has assembled 1860's era machinery and is making guns with it....I'd love to see that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLxDRb7yWnw



Looks like fingerprints on some of those barrels.

This H&H video makes it clear that barrels were not blacked until the entire gun was finished and test fired. It was then taken apart and engraved. On the H&H it also appears that barrels may have proofed before blacking (stamps are on the water table as it is finished).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUXoNUzAyvk



1951 film on proof testing Birmingham guns....whether barrels are blacked before being proofed is not quite clear - black and white film
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3aHnxsj7y8



But this video show a proofing process on the gun as it is fully ready for sale, barrels blacked, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q42lZqH-60



Whatever, this is mentioned just to reinforce my opinion that the address on the rib of J.C. Reilly SN 5512 was original, possibly dating it to 1847-48).

The gentleman from H&H is regulating barrels for convergence and the sights for POI, this would be the final step mechanically. It could be engraved afterwards but it would not be take apart to do so. Barrels can be blacked either before or after blacking, it would just depend upon the situation but I would believe most newly constructed guns to be proofed before blacking.

Sort of beating a dead horse since it's now well established that Reilly made guns, and some the most articulate and experienced posters on this board, who originally had doubts, have conceded most of the conclusions in this line. However, here's a repeat post from p.15 updated a bit. I'm not sure the "Gunmakers' Association" allowed "retailers" in as members. Could be wrong of course - more research on this topic is needed as pointed out below..

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1902 - H.H. (Bert) Reilly and the Gunmakers Association

� Here is the notice for the 1902 meeting of the British Gunmakers Association annual meeting. There are some powerful names here: Greener, Blanch, and of the people who didn�t show up H.W. Holland, etc. etc�and H.H. Reilly (Bert Reilly), EM�s youngest son. He apparently began running the business sometime in the late 1890's or early 1900's?? (with help from brother? mother?). (Note: Bert was still young at the time of this meeting; old E.M. surely would have been at the meeting - he was a consummate "networker" and the Reilly's were old friends and allies of Blanch).

Who ran it from EM�s death in July 1890 to the time Bert took over hasn't been established although EM Reilly's "reputed" son Edward Montague Reilly may have handled things until his death on 25 July 1895. Edward Montague was born in 1967 (possibly out of wedlock)...before Reilly was married. At death Edward Montague's profession was listed as "gun manufacturer."

The interesting thing, besides the fact that HH didn�t attend the meeting, is the existence of �The Gunmmakers� Association� at all. I�ve tried to research UK gunmakers associations and when and where they came into existence without much success. But. It�s an interesting topic �- what did they discuss? Who were members? How long did it exist? What organizations were predecessors? The minutes of the meetings have to be somewhere. There�s a lot of history there.

["Sort of beating a dead horse since it's now well established that Reilly made guns, and some the most articulate and experienced posters on this board, who originally had doubts, have conceded most of the conclusions in this line"]

No not all of us are convinced, but you're making a good case...Geo

I�m definitely in agreement with Mr. Newbern on this one. I still haven�t seen anything definitive, most specifically after the percussion era. Still not one gun making machine that was owned by Reilly. Not 1 photograph of gunmaking at Reilly�s in progress. Not 1 article describing gunmaking in progress. No names of lead gunmakers from each department (stockers, actioners, barrel makers, machinist, etc).
Cogswell & Harrison definitely made guns, there�s machines, names, pictures , articles to prove it too. All of the above is well documented with other manufacturers, even with the smaller ones. Keep digging. Still waiting proof of anything being made in the Reilly �factory� during the breech loading era.
Keep searching, hopefully you�ll come up with some empirical evidence proving definitively that actual gunmaking operations took place at Reilly�s in the breech loading era.

Research continues. But I'll reiterate....no photos exist of Reilly retail sales shops....but they existed. Reilly records were lost - Blanch records were lost in a Zeppelin raid also.

But not one publication from the 19th century called him a "retailer." Dozens of anthologies and encyclopedia's of manufacturers in UK from the 1830's to early 00's list Reilly as a gun maker/manufacturer, pistol maker/manufacturer and as pointed out, a maker of swords and knives.

Dozens of articles by knowledgeable shooters claim Reilly "made" or "built" the guns they were shooting including some of the most preeminent shooting writers of the age. How the late 20th century "experts" came to the conclusion that he was a retailer only is a mystery.

And both of you and a couple of others who have commented on the line really do know a lot and are respected. We'll see what happens.

Edit: And to help address concerns,to further this line, and in defense of the above research, here are questions:
-- it'd be helpful to know who told you all that Reilly did not make guns. Why do you believe what you were told? Did you do any research on the topic yourself? The origin of this myth seems to be rooted in Brown and Boothryod? I've already posted the errors about Reilly in the articles and books they've written.
-- Can you all point out definitively a Serial Numbered Reilly that was made by another manufacturer? Which one?....I can forward pictures of 300 extant Reilly's for analysis...a number pictured above. Have you all looked at this - analyzed the guns? Or are you just repeating something you were told?
-- And why, if he made muzzle loaders, and has been repeatedly identified as one of the earliest advocates of breech loaders in UK, could he not make breech loaders?

-- edit: Please post one....one...19th century writer or article that said Reilly was only a retailer. Thanks.

I'll simply add that there are people in the UK ready to change their opinion about Reilly. Because for 20 years he was one of if not the largest private gun makers in London.