doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

Argo;

Hello there in McLean;

Interesting thought on London makers may have browned barrels just before shipping in the era under discussion. Can you enlighten me some more about this?

Regards;
Bv

Well, I got the idea from you. I may have misunderstood or let this one instance assume too much importance?

Quoting Bushveld: "Engraving and engravers were just another craft/trade in the time of the E.M. Riley shotgun Weiland references. For example: E.J. Churchill sends a note and a set of barrels over to the excellent engraver Mr. Sumner on the morning of March 18, 1904 with the note reading: "Barrels of 1398 (gun number) To name (engrave the Churchill name and address), rough rib & engrave it these must be here tonight as they have to be blacked & go away tomorrow morning certain. Please Oblige; signed E.J. Churchill" From this note we can assume the Barrel blacker worked all night to get the barrels blacked for the customer gun to be shipped, as it usually takes 5 or 6 blacking cycles for a barrel to be completed--the blacker probably did not finish until late the next day."

Argo;

Thanks for your quick reply.

In that particular instance, I believe the last minute barrel browning/blacking was as a result of an overall tight schedule of Churchill in the finishing of the subject shotgun. I have wondered what sort of proper barrel blacking job could have been done in such a short period, if indeed the schedule Churchill was as tight as he writes.

I suspect however, when the production schedule of building guns and rifles was normal, or at least more normal, that barrel were browned/blacked as soon as possible to prevent rusting from handling and rusting because of a humid environment.

Stay inside as it must be quite hot at McLean today.

Rust blue can be done using a variety of methods as well. Some factories used steam rooms to speed the process and Belgium style express blue would be another option.

I assume barrels are blacked or browned after the address on the rib is engraved from Bushveld's post on the Churchill above? So the barrel is made, welded, hammered, bored, honed, polished, joined, lumps added, rib cemented in...then engraved before browning? And browning doesn't take place until...??? When?

But does it make sense to put two barrels together, cement in the rib and then engrave the rib, before you know what gun it's going on? Could be but then I'm not a gun maker. But pictures of (mass production ) factories sure show a lot of bored barrels piled up and just sitting there. I don't really know diddly about gunmaking but common sense would seem to indicate the barrels are finished off for a bespoke gun as a last step...but am open to counter-arguments.

As for SN 5512 and whether the address on the rib or the bore stamp is a date marker...I'd still go with the address on the rib until proven otherwise. If anyone has pre 1855 Reillys and can check their guns (they're all posted above..) please post.





And Didier-Drevet never made more than 300 barrels a year in Saint Etienne to maintain quality throughout the last half of the 19th century.

Argo;

I know a way for you to gain, in a short period time, a primer on the art and craftsmanship of gunmaking to complement your considerable research skills.

10 years or so ago a video was made of the gunmaking process inside Holland & Holland, with the likely title of "A Look Inside HOLLAND & HOLLAND"--"Film by Billy Payn www.gunmakersrow.co.uk" Back then I think I paid 50 dollars US or UK pounds 50--I do not remember. It was available as a CD for both USA and European format. An hour or so in length. You should search for it and do yourself a great favor by purchasing it and learning, for example how ribs are soldered on,(yes, an actual video segment shows this in the H&H video) not cemented. Although they are "cemented" on these days for less expensive guns--and they stay on the barrels very well, for even some carbide tips on circular/rotary saw blades are cemented on these days.

H&H no longer has these videos for sale, but they may be able to help you find one--a call to them in Dallas would be worth it.

Thanks Bush....I am risking divorce by having bought 5512 even though its condition may preclude shooting it....it will be my first and probably only project gun.

I'll take a look at the H&H tape...and there are others out there. But frankly, though my entire family are engineers, I'm not (though I did restore a 1950's BSA DBD-34 Gold Star 500 single etc.) I'm really more of a historian. I'll rely on you guys who really know what you are doing to keep my ideas straight.

I hope it answers more questions for you than it raises!

I was asked recently whether a Reilly case was original. Labels tell a story. But cases? There were so many different grades and types, oak, leather, canvas, top opening, end opening (Terry Buffum had one of these), and I'm not at all sure Reilly or any other gun maker made his own cases. And cases were lost, abused, replaced.

Still here are 6 top of the line Mahogany cases from about 1855 to 1870 or so which seem to have a unity of make and may (or may not) indicate originality or date period - they all have this little lift-up ring on the top face of the case:



7869 (Late 1855) ( SXS 40's gun) - Mahogany


12532, 1862. Gold Wash M-L, which I believe was exhibited at the 1862 London Exposition - case is more ornate than usual as would be expected.


16 bore muzzle loader, no SN mentioned, EM Reilly label but estimate 1862. The brass ornatery was added in India.


13033, 1863.


15964, 1869


16585, 1870

Argo, I believe this forum is very lucky to have a member of your ability posting so much information as you do about Reilly shotguns. Don't think it is not appreciated.

My first brit gun was a sleeved Reilly I bought off this site, and it is still one of my favorites. You already have the serial and information on my gun and it's the only one I have, so I have nothing to add but my encouragement to you to keep on doing what you are doing...Geo