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===========================================================
5512 ?
. it is always JC throwing the monkey wrench into the works
(actually the term "sabotage" came from Belgians throwing their wooden shoes (sabots) into machinery which was taking their jobs)

And the more you think you know....the harder the fall. Above is mention of Reilly SN's that just don't fit the chronology. Here is another one - at least the seller read this line.

SN 5512. (on the barrels and the splinter forearm
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/820030447
Rare British double barrel 12g shotgun made by J.C. Reilly. He was silver smith before he started making guns. He made guns for royalty of Europe and Asia. This one has serial number on it(all matching) which means that he personally made and hand engraved this gun. There is a good history write up about this maker and I will post a link of it. Gun is in very good shape, it is Damascus barrels. Spring is very tight and everything works on it. I tried to take a lot of pictures of it to show everything. Great shotgun which was personally made by the starter of the company. I will let pictures tell the story. history of the company: Doublegunshop web site under Reilly history It is antique and it will be shipped to your door.

What's interesting is the address on the rib: Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holborn now 502 Oxford Street. The gun had to be numbered around the time of the move from High Holborn to Oxford Street....late March 1847. I will ask the seller if there are any other marks on it.





Address on Barrels:


SN on Splinter forearm


SN on barrels


Reilly didn't do a lot of non floral engraving....this is interesting, David Trevalion said the London engravers always messed up wildlife - they'd never seen real animals in the flesh:


This inscription matches well with this label and with advertisements that continued for a year after the move....JC had a hard tine letting go of High Holborn.



This ad from 09 Nov 1847 "London Post" 8 months after the move shows how wedded he was to the High Holborn address.


This is the current chronology from p.22....at some point I'll move it.
1846: ..3121 - .3360. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 240
..3329 - J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London, 10 ga/.58 cal. Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun. Muzzle loader

1847: ..3361 - .3400. + 7000 - 7070. + 8400 - 8500 - . . . . .240. .*3,*4,*5,*6
..3392 -Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holburn, London. 10 ga/.58 cal; Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, Muzzle loader. (Last SN at High Holborn).
..7023 - J.C. Reilly, 316 High Holborn, London. 11bore. Shotgun SxS. Muzzle Loader, hammer gun. (1st JC 7000 series but with Holborn still on the rib)
..5512 (outlier) - Joseph Charles Reilly, 316 High Holborn now 502 Oxford Street; 12 bore SxS Shotgun. Hammergun, Muzzle loader.
..8463 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London (“label-J.C. Reilly, removed from Holborn"); .390 cal. Rifle; Enfield percussion, double express, muzzle loader. (First New Oxford 8400 series)
..84xx - Reilly, 502 Oxford Street, London; 6 Bore; Shotgun, single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader.

1848: ..8501 - .8680. + 7071 - 7170. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 280
..8578 - J.C. Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London (label - “removed from Holborn”); 10 bore; Shotgun SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader

1849: ..8681 - .8860. + 7171 - 7270. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 280
..7201 - Joseph Charles Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London; .577 cal; Rifle, Single barrel, hammer gun, Muzzle loader. (label - "Removed from Holborn")

Last edited by Argo44; 07/04/19 12:55 AM.

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================================================================
11716 - Validation of Chronology

This gun just appeared on Guns International. Reilly SN 11716 - .577 Enfield Rifle Presented as a prize Christmas 1860. The chronology date chart would have had it numbered in November-December 1860 - believe this is another "validation of method" marker.

This from p.22:
1860: 11341 - 11770. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 430
11419 - Reilly, (Address not clear) Oxford; .577 cal Rifle; Enfield, 2 band, hammer gun, muzzle loader,
11645 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 100 bore; Rifle. Prince patent, single barrel, breech loader,
11651 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford St., London. .577 cal; Enfield type, hammer gun, muzzle loader converted to Snider breech loader.
11xxx - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street London (Reilly on case); 11mm. 4 smooth barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader
11716 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London; .577 Enfield rifle. Muzzle loader, volunteer rifles. Presented as a prize Christmas 1860

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101246940
Description:
This antique presentation model of the Model 1853 rifled musket / target rifle made in London, England is absolutely beautiful. The rifle was made by E.M. Reilly & Co., which according the barrel address was located on New Oxford Street in London. This beauty was given out as a 2nd place prize most in an 1860 military shooting competition. The buttstock has a round sterling silver plague inlaid into the right side which is engraved "14 Devonshire VR - Dec.1860 - 2nd Prize". Just ahead of the rear sight is the main presentation inscription in an acid-etched section: "Second Prize Rifle - Presented to the 14th Devon V.R. Christmas 1860 - By The Hon C. Denman MP". From what we have learned so far, the "V.R." in 14th Devonshire V.R. stands for either Volunteer Rifles or Volunteer Reserves, either way it was part of the British Empire Military......... (etc. - see link)



Last edited by Argo44; 09/24/19 09:51 AM.

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If JC Reilly wasn't making guns, he sure pulled the wool over the London directory authors like Pigot.


Last edited by Argo44; 07/04/19 11:43 PM.

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Another 19th century British books on UK manufacturers, this one from 1870. Reilly is listed as a "gun, rifle and pistol manufacturer"....no mention of his being a "retailer." Perhaps the compilers were fooled?

1870 Handbook to the Manufacturers and Exporters of Great Britain.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z_INAA...ers&f=false


Last edited by Argo44; 07/12/19 10:10 PM.

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Hi everyone, i'm new to this forum and based in the UK. I have just found this brilliant thread and am most impressed with the efforts gone in to creating this authoritative database, well done!
I own, and shoot, a J C Reilly which might be of interest. It is a 14b percussion double gun of fine quality, the barrels have marks for London proof and are stamped 14, suggesting post 1855. The external faces of the locks are signed just "Reilly". The top rib is signed "Joseph Charles Reilly New Oxford Street London" with no street number, but assume 502 (1848-1860) which would tie in nicely with the proof marks.
Here's where it gets interesting, it's serial number is marked extensively to locks, barrels, breech plugs, ironwork and wood. But the number is "2008" suggesting a much earlier gun. I tend to think 1855-1860 is more likely the manufacture date, but would appreciate your views as to it's number and date.
I can take some pics, but do not have a web site to post them here, perhaps i can PM them to a member and they could post on my behalf?
Look forward to your thoughts...

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Hello wootang and welcome!! I would gladly post photos for you. I'll send you an e-mail via PM. Alternatively, you can go to a commercial web photo hosting site where for free they will convert your photos for posting....I use jpgbox.com. I think yours is an important gun and would like to have a record of it.

I'm having all sort of recent problems with J.C.'s numbering system from about March 1847 when they moved to 502 New Oxford Street to the time he retired September 1857.
-- There is the "7000" series which includes 7 extant JC guns from 7023 (while still at High Holborn) to 8052 (obviously one of the very last guns he made).
-- Then there are the "outliers":
.....-- 5512 from I believe 1847
.....-- 3514 from I believe 1856 time period based on the case label.
.....-- 2008 - And now your gun

.....-- Terry Buffum bought a JC Reilly, High Holborn 6 bore single barrel in May that we thought had a serial number 4073. It turned out, when he got hold of it and examined it under deep magnification to be 1x73 with the x being a number with a bottom curve - 3, 5 or 8. Assuming it were a 5 or 8 it would be right around 1839-41 and thus in sequence. (see post above).

Based on the address 2008 had to have been made by J.C. during the time period 23 March 1847 to September 1857. Perhaps with pictures we can work on a more precise date. Does it have an original case? Is there a label in the case?

I would be interested in why, if stamped "14" it would be post 1855? This is new to me and potentially very interesting. Gene Williams

Any address with "New Oxford" will refer to 502, renumbered 16 in November 1881...March 1847 to June 1898. 315 (later 277) Oxford street sometimes just "Oxford Street" opened in January 1859 and continued to be used until closed in 1904.

Last edited by Argo44; 07/14/19 09:17 PM.

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Thankyou Argo, success with the pictures.
Unfortunately no case with the gun, so no label.
Definately only 2008 as the serial number.
30" twist barrels which have been refinished at some time. The top rib signing is faint but does states address as previous post.
The London and Birmingham proof houses were only stamping the bore size, in addition to the proof marks, from 1855, hence my supposition that the gun would be post 1855. Marks and dates Chart below.
The gun has an interesting trigger guard, which i have never seen on an English gun.



















Hopefully the question of date can be resolved! I'm sure i once read somewhere that Joseph Charles perhaps kept back some numbers for later use, which might explain? My only other thought is the gun may have been rebarreled in the 1850's, keeping the original early number but displaying the address at the time of the rebarreling? But hard to imagine the original barrels could be worn out in such a short time, unless of course a major barrel burst?
Cheers

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Just to amplify on the proof marks as it is an important dating point. The marking of the barrels with the bore size, was a requirement introduced by the English 1855 Gun Barrel Proof Act and applied to both London and Birmingham proof houses. Prior to this date, i believe there was no requirement to do so, however maybe some makers did as there will always be exceptions to the rule?
The proof house chart in the post above was extracted from Diggory hadoke's book "Vintage guns for the modern shot" with grateful aknowledgement.

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Interesting woo. The 1855 mandated bore stamps would indeed be a date marker. I went back and looked through my database which has 20 Reilly (Joseph Charles Reilly, J.C. Reilly and Reilly) extant long guns which I've dated 1825 to 1855. Unfortunately there's not one picture in the lot of barrel markings - once more Auction house going for esthetics and missing the crux of the guns. I'll start looking further.

However, with this stamp then 2008 surely dates between 1855 and the institution of the bore size stamp and September 1857 when J.C. Reilly publicly announced his retirement.

Looking at your pictures above, especially the pineapple finials (which probably were common motifs at the tine), I'd say your gun most resembles these two Reilly's:

=========================================================
7869
. (I dated it 1855...part of the JC Reilly "7000" series)
(SXS 40 now owns this gun...I'll ask him to take a look at the proof marks to see if there is a bore mark.)
http://www.amoskeagauction.com/114/270.php
serial #7869, 12 ga, 31" damascus barrels with very good lightly pitted bores. The barrels display a beautiful damascus pattern with light pinprick pitting around the breech area. The top rib is marked "J.C. REILLY. NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON." The locks show a mottled brown patina which are nicely engraved in foliate scroll with geometric borders. The hammers show a nice scroll engraving and appear to have been lightly polished; the right hammer guard has a small chip. The engraved guard with pineapple finial front extension shows a dull gray patina. The checkered walnut pistolgrip buttstock and forend rate very good with scattered dings and scratches with a wood repair on top of the comb. The gun functions well mechanically and included is a ramrod. (177147-155) {ANTIQUE} (1000/1500) SOLD FOR $0.00SOLD FOR $431.25



=========================================================
3514
- label indicates post September 1855-1859 - not a JC but close
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns-black-powder/reilly/percussion/12-gauge/170610144659005
C1850 - CASED IN ORIGINAL MAHOGANY CASE WITH REILLY TRADE LABEL.BARRELS MARKED 13 BORE. RIB ENGRAVED WITH REILLY, 502 NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON. DAMASCUS BARRELS WITH RAMROD. GOOD COLOURED ACTION WITH SOME SCROLL ENGRAVING. LARGE TRIGGER GUARD ENGRAVED WITH DOGS. PINEAPPLE FINIALS. STOCK REPAIRED. OVERALL GOOD CLEAN FIREABLE CONDITION.





Pineapple motif from the 4-barrel pictured above:


I've temporarily put your 2008 into the year 1856 in the p.22 chart of extant guns...based on the above two guns.

1855: ..9761 - .9940. + 7771 - 7870. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 280
..7801 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 28 bore; Walking cane gun.
..7802 - J.C. Reilly, New Oxford St., London; 6 bore, Single Barrel, muzzle loader, Hammer Wildfowl gun
..7869 - J.C. Reilly, New Oxford St. London; 12 ga; Shotgun; SxS; hammer gun, muzzle loader (Buffum)(SXS40).

1856: ..9941- 10220. + 7870 - 7970. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 380. . . . .**1. Overdone by orders after Paris
..3514 outlier - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London. 13bore. Shotgun SxS; Muzzle loader, hammer gun (1855-59 case label)
..2008 outlier - Joseph Charles Reilly, New Oxford Street, London. 14 bore. Shotgun SxS; Muzzle loader hammer gun. 14 bore stamp.

1857: 10221 - 10530. + 7971 - 8060. - . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400. .*7
..8025 - Reilly, New Oxford St. London; 13 bore, Rifle; hammer gun, Muzzle loader (Buffum). (marked Veni, Vidi, Vici)
..8052 - Reilly, New Oxford St., London. 20 bore. Rifle. Hammer gun, muzzle loader. (marked Veni, Vidi, Vici) (Last JC made gun)
10315 - Reilly, New Oxford Street, London; 6bore. Shotgun; Single barrel, hammer gun, muzzle loader.
10354 - Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London; .400 cal. Rifle; SxS double breech loader. (Extensive conversion 1895-1904 by John Fry-added new receiver, underlever, hammers, stock.)

Last edited by Argo44; 07/16/19 12:28 AM.

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Your trigger guard appears on this E.M. Reilly & Co., London 4 bore single barrel, Birmingham Proof...Which I don't think Reilly made..only retailed (no SN): I have a difficult time dating this gun because EM put his name on non-serial numbered guns in the 1850's before the company formally changed its name to "EM Reilly & Co" in October 1859.

I'll have to research UK corporation data from the 1850's....several authors claim the Reilly's had two or three different companies operating out of the same premises using the same labels and the same advertisements at the same time. (Of course...there's NO indication that this was based on primary source research). - - - except that Reilly exhibited at the 1851 Crystal Palace International exhibition as "E.M. Reilly" and at the 1855 Paris Internationale also as "E.M. Reilly.")
-- (But I feel the Reilly's JC and EM were compulsive control freaks and supervised even the guns they sold on retail).
-- (I've never figured out why there are two triggers...might one be a hair trigger set?)





And another - no SN mentioned:
================================================================
Post October 1859 ??

http://www.mendipauctionrooms.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Sporting-Sale-Catalogue-Dec.pdf
150. E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street, London 13 Bore double barreled shotgun, Damascus Barrels, believed to be original finish. Ł1000-1500


Last edited by Argo44; 07/16/19 02:31 PM.

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