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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
W.W. Greener, yes- but yesterday, whilst cruising a pawn shoppe/jewelry (Rolex knock-offs) and used guns- saw a 12 Hammer double with damascus barrels= on the lock plates- A. Greener- could NOT read any script of the top rib- the store had covered that area with white tape- so the gun could not be broken open. Owner's wife told me that was store policy-and she was sorry, but that was that--
Anyone here heard of a Limey ginmaker named "A. Greener"-lockwork and hammers looked "cheesy" to my eyes-- RWTF
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Odds are about 99.9% that it has Belgian proof marks on it. Most likely a JABC.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,573 Likes: 80
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,573 Likes: 80 |
agree with 2-piper. The Belgians made a lot of knockoff names trying to cash in on the better known makes.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313 |
William Sr. did have a son Albert, but he didn't make it. After William Sr's death in 1869, William Wellington took over, Albert went to San Francisco, and another brother, Joseph Henry, went to New Zealand. Likely by Lambert Dumoulin, and appears to be the victim of after-market punch "tightening"  https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/seeking-i......-429074.html
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
When one sees only one diameter mark on a Belgian proofed gun as this 18.2 mm mark, then I believe that is the bore diameter & not a choke mark. Depending upon the actual date of proof choke bore guns will be found marked Not for Ball, Choke or with bore diameter over choke diameter as in 18.5 / 18.2. In this case, then 18.5 would be the bore diameter & 18.2 the choke diameter.
As this gun carries none of these marks it may well have been cylinder bored in both barrels.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 281 Likes: 9
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 281 Likes: 9 |
I have one, it is a Belgian gun, cheap when new and age hasn't helped - what we would now call a Trademark Infringement.
It is what we call a JABC (Just another Belgian Clunker)
I do have fun saying I have "A Greener" though
Last edited by Lawrence Kotchek; 07/11/19 01:03 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Another name commonly encountered among the JABCs is W Richards.
I do have a rather early (pre-1887 proofs) W Richards hammer gun with Birmingham proofs. It is presently in poor condition but appears as originally it was a "Cut Above" the JABCs, but certainly nowhere near the quality of either a Westly Richards nor a William Richards.
A goodly number of these Birmingham W Richards guns have shown up. They are believed to have been made by J P Clabrough, though not one of his better lines.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 156 Likes: 17
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 156 Likes: 17 |
Another name commonly encountered among the JABCs is W Richards.
I do have a rather early (pre-1887 proofs) W Richards hammer gun with Birmingham proofs. It is presently in poor condition but appears as originally it was a "Cut Above" the JABCs, but certainly nowhere near the quality of either a Westly Richards nor a William Richards.
A goodly number of these Birmingham W Richards guns have shown up. They are believed to have been made by J P Clabrough, though not one of his better lines. Miller, I did not know that about the Clabroughs. Recently bought a W. Richards with Birmingham proofs and assumed it was from William of Liverpool. Its a side lever which is what interested me but going back to vendor. Claimed lockup was tight and no pits. Turns out barrels are like a sewer pipe and action loose as a goose. Confronted, he said "well 3 good peens with a hammer and it's tight again." Yeah, not kidding. He forgot to mention the flecks of paint on the stock in photo were powder post beetle holes.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,413 Likes: 313 |
JB: Does your gun have the little tree? The 1886 catalog from John P. Moore's Sons in New York listed "Clabrough's Make" W. Richards. 
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
My W Richards does not have the little tree. It has some scroll type engraving on the lockplates, top tang, the bottom of frame & trigger guard. It has a straight grip stock with long tang ending in a point. Has a steel butt plate with a spur at the top, It had an escutcheon in forend tip but was missing when I acquired it so do not know what it was.
It is a side lever opener with single underbolt & no rib extension. Both lockplates are marked W Richards & the top rib is marked W Richards London Laminated Steel. I would call it a plain (wire) twist. Both stock & forend are checkered & forend is a snap-on.
It was proofed prior to the chamber mark enclosed in a diamond & has only the bore marking which on this one is 14 though the chamber will take a 12 gauge shell.
If memory serves me correctly with the 1887 proof law the chamber designation was added as well as the in-between gauge marks, as 14/1, etc. This one currently measures just shy of a 13 gauge. "IF" it has ever been honed it shows no sign of it now. I keep it because it was my Grandfathers gun. My dad was born in 1910 & Grandaddy had it as long as he can remember. I do not know if he bought it new or not, but suspect it had some use when he got it.
There is no serial number on it. On the right barrel alongside the forend lug is the letter 3. On the left barrel behind the forend lug down close to the lower rib is what appears could have been O,S though the O is incomplete., could be something else.
I can assure you these guns were built by Neither Westley or William Richards. Everything I have been able to find points to J P Clabrough.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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