doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Open choke, useful?

I was thinking about the usefullness of a cylinder choke gun, one that had the chokes cut off. Awhile ago someone posted here that they had a gun with the choke cut off and that "it was useless". I don't know what they were going to use it for, perhaps trap or waterfowl, but other than that I would think it hardly useless. If my figuren isn't to far off- cylinder might be a good choke to have? Considering at 40yards a modified choke patterns 45-55% and cylinder (nochoke)patterns 25-35%.(Browning chart). A nochoke gun, at 30yards, patterns close to the same as modified at 40 and 30 is a more common range on alot of game birds. Heck if your younger than me and have a light gun, 20yards might be where your shootin em?

Best to you all,

Kurt

I have a Lefever choked cylinder/full. It is a great gun for open country with the full choke second shot. It also excells at sporting clays, esp. when you've got the cylinder bore and the bird is coming towards you. I have found cylinder bore quite useful.

Depends on what you hunt, and how. I use a gun choked Cyl/Mod. The Cyl barrel is very effective on ruffed grouse and pheasant in dense cover - but I seldom take shots much beyond 35 yards.

Cylinder is a great choke to have over a pointing dog..that first shot usually is a quick one..

Kurt, totally agree, hardly useless. Unless you are going for long range shots over 40yds. As Jack says, it does depend on what you hun, and how.

It should be added, citing Gough Thomas that a more open bore allows for far greater aiming errors at 25 yds. or so -a common game-shooting range-.

JC

The classic English field gun is typically choked cylinder or something close and full or something close. Tracks with my own impression that most shots or either close or far - darned few modified anything out there. I use my Cyl/F Osborne on everything from quail to pheasants.

My favorite dove gun is an old ml'er SxS and of course it has cyl. bores.

I agree. Cylinder and Full is a very versatile combination. More useful and certainly more versatile in many situations than the more common Mod. and Full or IC and Mod.

If you hunt chukars and huns out west at any point from mid-November on, I would leave a cylinder choked gun home. Even over pointers, those birds are sometimes getting up at 35-40 yds.
I have thought about putting tubes in my gun so I can switch to mod/full for late season open country shooting.

Having said all that, cyl/mod or cyl/full would be great for many situations around the country, over pointed birds and during the early to mid season especially.

I suppose it all depends on where and what you intend to be shooting/shooting at, but down here in the deep South (with our thick cover) and assuming you are actually serious about bagging game, true cylinder bore is the most effective "choke" one can use; and furhter, anything tighter than improved cylinder is about as useless as tits on a boar hog! The only exceptions to my personal "southern rule" are head shots on turkey, squirrels out of the tallest river bottom poplars and pines, selected clays shooting, and pass-shooting wildfowl and dove to some degree. For many years I thought modified the best all-around choke; but one season found myself armed only with an A-5 equipped with the 24" clylinder-bore slug barrel. After I adjusted to the new "sight picture" of the factory mounted open sights, I was amazed at the work a cylinder bore would accomplish. Afterwards, I bought a cheap Spanish double (Erbi) with factory 18" cylinder bore barrels. That gun was so effective on upland game it was almost inhumane. Its short barrels were so quick that anything inside 15 yeards was dead a millisecond after it flushed; and furhter, was equally effective (from the standpoint of being adequatedly choked) out to 35+ yards (the shooter obviously had more time a longer targets). As all game bagfged was consumed, there was the added advantage that seldom was game mangled to the point that is was inedible. I found the A-5 cylinder barrel quite effective on dove out to a little better than 40 years (with my #9 shot handloads), and on decoying ducks. I also found that a cylinder choke seemed to more evenly pattern large shot. So my experience with a cylinder choke is that, far from being useless, it is most effective; and would be more than suitable for a vast array of shooting situations. With a double gun, as someone has already suggested, I have found true cylinder and full to be most effective on dove; as it's very impressive to roll that first incomer, or close passing shot, with the open bore; then really smack the next bird with the full choke at 45 plus yards. I challenge you to conduct your own "field test", but don't ever believe true cylinder is useless.

If I was told I had a choice of a cylinder or a full choked gun and it was going to be the only gun I could shoot for a year, I would take cylinder.

Just the way I shoot. I rarely need more that I,C, for anything, including ducks. I don't shoot many 45 yard shots and I suspect that most 45 yard shotgun shots are a lot like a most 500 yard groundhog shots. I have a 200 yard meadow that has a bench rest and a berm that I often leave a SR1 200 yard high power rife target in. Folks ask me how long it is and I ask them to guess. I have had guesses as high as 600 yards. I don't put much stock in paced off shotgun shots either, where a bird lands is not how far it was when you shot it.

The way I shoot full is only good for turkey hunting.

Best, Dick

Cyl/cyl would be my choice for grouse and ducks over decoys. Anything flying up to 30-35 yards. In the little alder holes or openings, a centred M/F will blow them apart.

Ducks over 'coys is Cyl/Mod good.
My first ducker was a gamegun.
Perfect for speeding bullets like the Blue-Winged Teal.

My favourite game gun (one of many, many guns I have owned and used over the years)is a hammer gun with 30" Damascus barrels.

The right barrel has 7 points of choke and the left has 3 points of choke.

I find it totally effective for all game shooting situations.

What I would suggest is that you pattern your gun with a variety of cartridges so you can see what you are actually getting out of it.

I'm an advocate of open bores.

My 1950's Browning A5 has a factory 26" CYLINDER barrel with a solid rib. I've used very succesfully for all upland birds as well as skeet and sporting clays.

I also have a 1911 A.H. Fox with 29" barrels that are now CYL and IC. It has proven itself on many birds, both live and clay. I used it on doves this weekend with steel 6's (non-tox requirement).

With modern plastic cup shotshells, many of the CYLINDER bores really shoot like IC.

JERRY

While I thought cyl choke useful, I admit some surprize has to how useful you have experienced it to be! Sporting clays, ducks over decoys! I am thinking that choke constriction may have been some trend prior to the advent of "magnum" rifles and 3&1/2" shotshells? The old timers who took hacksaws to their shotguns appear to be wiser men than many may have thought? I make particular note of Jerry's post: using steel shot in his older gun. I replied to another post that Remington permits steel in their economy doubles if cyl/ic is used, though the tubes are not rated for steel. Perhaps this is some answer to the the future use of our classic guns if notox shot becomes the standard we must use? I know the PA Game Commission has begun a lead clean up at its ranges across this state and their so strapped for cash paying salaries and buying 4x4s to ride around in they may want to eliminate that cleanup cost soon?

I enjoy this replies immensely! Very informative!

Kurt

Do not confuse a gun bored as 'Cylinder' with one which has beeen chopped off to shorten it. the old barrel borers would regulate 'Cylinder gus to shoot and pattern properly. Hacsawing two inches of the end is not going to improve anything.

For maybe a decade or so, I used cylinder bore guns with loads that clearly patterned true cylinder or 1/4 choke. Highly effective, although some of those loads were heavier than I am currently willing to shoot in lighter guns I now use.

In recent years, I have used scatter loads in right barrel of tight choked old hammer doubles for ducks over decoys -- really great, with full or fuller patterning loads in left barrel.

For desert quail, I want at least a true 1/2 choke pattern in right barrel and full or more in left barrel.

Now that I am old and slower and slower, and like light guns more and more, I shoot tight patterning, light loads in both barrels for nearly everything (save decoying ducks). By the time I get all lined up for killing shot, tight pattern is plenty wide.

Niklas

"If" it is a "True Cylinder" then it has the same dia from cone to muzzle. Standard practise I believe allowed .003" muzzle constriction before it was no longer considered cylinder. There is of course always "Jug Choking" but then is no longer a cylinder bore. There would seem to be little regulating which could be done & the bbl still be a "Cylinder".

In testing my guns, I got 20-50+% patterns from bores that had no measurable choke constriction, and no jug choking, depending on the ammo used. Last I knew, "true cylinder" patterns were considered to be 35-40% of shot pellets in 30 inch diameter circle at 40 yards.

Big difference in usefulness in field of 20% vs 50% patterns.

My scatter loads, using SpreadR disks, in my guns range from 30% to 45% at 30 yards, depending mostly on shotsize, with #5 and #6 giving the tighter patterns. With #6 Bi-Sn shots, 7/8 or even 3/4 oz scatter loads have been deadly on decoying ducks at 20-35 yards.

Niklas

Steve Smith on the Beretta show uses a 20 gauge O/U with one choke cyl. He had a segment on one of the shows about it. (Don't remember the writer's name long ago (a little help Larry Brown)who said "Imp.Cyl. will make you a good shot but cylinder will make you a cracker jack of a shot."

I once owned a fine Prussian 12bore 30" J.P.Sauer that I had regulated to pattern my reloads at 40% and 50%. In one season in southern Michigan, I killed 12 phez with 13 shots and then promptly sold the gun - made great sense at the time.

George, that Prussian 12 bore shot almost as well as a borrowed gun! ;-) ;-)

George, George, George...

Cylinder bore deforms shot the least, since there is no added deformatin, thus giving the most even pattern distribution, all other things being equal.. Shot cups add a bit of choke anyway. Many early game guns were made cylinder bore in one barrel in spite of felt wads. Patterning is the true test and handloading can adjust pattern sometimes more than a hone can...

Curious Snow... What's your reference for the assertion that cylinder is the most even distribution?

I want to learn here..

IMO, The best chokes are WS-1/WS-2, They are very affective and they were designed to a more even pattern than Cyl/IC.

WS-1/WS-2 are not the same as todays standard SK/SK.

Skeet 1 and Skeet 2 are usually .005 and .015. which is what I use for all of my hunting although I wish I had more on blue quail.

Imp Cyl "Was" designed to do just what it's name implies, IE improve the pattern of a cyl bored gun but to not greatly decrease it's spread. Most American & Continental guns marked I/C are in reality ¼ choked guns, a degree tighter than I/C. I too would love to see "Proof" that cyl bores give a more even spread than an I/C & also that WS1/WS2 chokes give demonstrably better patterns than other makes with similar constrictions. Count me among the Skeptics.

Jimmy, that quote isn't familiar to me. However, in Bob Brister's book "Shotgunning: The Art and the Science", he starts his chapter "Choosing Chokes and Loads" with the following sentence: "Full choke is a demanding mistress; improved cylinder a forgiving friend."

I spend a lot of time hunting pheasants, and the R barrels on the two doubles I use almost exclusively (a pair of Army & Navy 12's) are both choked .005. Good to see so many folks here understand the value and usefulness of open chokes!

Don M: Run a barrel micrometer through a Beretta 'Skeet' choke (Mobil or Optima). It has an internal profile identical to a WS-1. It is a very good skeet choke. Now for the real surprise... I have here a Remington 1100 barrel marked 'Skeet' that also has the identical internal profile of a WS-1. It's from a 'Skeet-B' circa early 1970's. I found that interesting... Agree WS-1 and WS-2 is an excellent all around combo.

Well, I don't have any Beretta's laying around(not much need or want) and I don't have a barrel mic'(no need for that eather), so I'll take your word for it.
I will have to respectfully disagree with Miller that the WS-1/WS-2 don't have better patterns than standard SK/SK, for the yardage that they were designed for. I have shot patterns from both and there is a difference. Granted, it's not enough that would make any difference to a good shot in the real world.

I have a nicely done full resto #2 Crass damascus gun that has the barrels lopped to 26" with no choke. Fantastic quail gun with 1 oz of 7 1/2's.

Well now I'm not sure exactly what I said that's being disagreed with. I did not say the WS1/WS2 chokes were not better. I only said I was skeptical & would be interested in seeing definitive proof. I once knew a man who owned a rusty, pitted JABC W Richards bored cyl in both bbls, who thought he had the Longest Range, Hardest shooting gun in whole wide world. When it comes down to Prejudical Opinion you can still paint me skeptical. I note that a good number of national championships have been won by shooters not using WS1/WS2 chokes & these required several hundred "Un-Missed" targets. Must not have been too many large holes in the pattern. Guess there is no "Real Proof" Huh??