doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Superposed Restoration / Upgrade

I'm restoring and upgrading a 1968 Superposed 28 gauge.
It's clearly a Salt Wood Superposed, buttstock and forend both affected..
Wood has been removed and deactivated via the Pot Belly Stove method back in Missouri.
Degraded metals are receiving "The Treatment". All engraving will be removed, receiver will be re-radiused.









Upon prep completion, the receiver and all furniture will be sent west to Angelo Bee in California for engraving, Pointer style.

I've looked at dozens of blanks and am focusing on the several below.
I think I've made my choice on a "Pointer like" candidate.
Which would you choose?

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

Sweet! I'd probably chose the right blank in the last photo or thesixth photo (third from last).

I would eliminate 3 and 5 for sure.

I kind of like #8.

Good on you for saving and restoring it.

I'd like to know what the "Treatment" is. I looked at a fairly nice English hammer gun a few months ago and it had some serious pitting on the metal in some areas, especially the top tang. I passed.
I think i have seen where new metal can be welded back on and re-shaped and re-engraved.
It was priced very reasonable and was made by a London "Best" Maker.

I agree, #8

it is a wonderful thing that you are doing by first restoring and then upgrading this fine gun...

#8 is a clear winner for me. Will be interesting as this project proceeds. Keep us updated with photos of the progress.

The "Treatment".
Bead blasting to remove all rust. Welding new metal. Annealing then milling.
Feathering barrels to remove pitting as they can't be welded.
Plenty of meat in front of the forcing cones, MBW thickness will remain +.025.
No worries regarding engraving loss as all old engraving will be polished off to leave a clean palette for the new engraving.

#8 is a pair of Turkish blanks.
Left or right blank?

Since you are welding on new metal, will you be case coloring?

Welding often shows up in blued steel. Perhaps the engraving will disguise some of it, but case coloring will usually disguise it better.

Will you be doing the work? The welding I mean. I agree this will be an outstanding project.
I especially like the Pointer engraving.

The left blank in pic 8 has a wide swath of what looks like sap wood in the picture on the right. Far stretch to call those a pair?

I like #6 if you plan to shoot it. Nice strong grain flow through the wrist with a feather far enough back it won�t hurt the structure.

Art Isaacson himself is doing the metal work on my project.
I don�t know of any factory case colored Superposed.
The finish on a Pointer ( and Pidgeon as well) is a process called French Grey.



Turkish blanks are only a pair in that there are two.

How old is Angelo Bee getting to be?

Best,
Ted

Forgive me for being gauche, but that looks like a serious money pit. You couldn�t find what you wanted in the open market?

how gauche...we are talkin art here...

Have you done an internet search for 28 gauge Browning Superposed?
Now Pointers?
Now Superlights?

Pros
- it�s a Belgian Superposed
- it�s a 28 gauge
- it�ll be a Superlight
- it�ll be a Pointer
- it�ll be engraved by a world renown engraver Angelo Bee
- it�ll be stocked to fit me
- I�ll choose the wood myself

Cons
- nope, can�t think of a one

Now this,
Let�s through a few more bones at the project.





Yup, that�s right, that�s an original, unfinished, never been on a gun set of Belgian Browning 28 gauge barrels.
Sure they�ll need ejectors, forend wood and metal, fitting and finish
but how many Superposed Superlight Pointer two barrel sets do you think there are in this world?

Were it meant to be hung onto,
They�d of made money with handles.

Ted,
I believe Angelo Bee is 82 Year�s old.
Weeks ago I viewed a video of him working with hammer and chisel.
His speed and dexterity were amazing.
No moss growing on him.

I�ve seen a few guns with his name on them, that I would have guessed (educated guess, but, still a guess) were 50s-60s vintage.

Hope I�m upright at 82, and can still pull my boots on.

Best,
Ted

#8 right

Party on and full steam ahead Bobby Cash. Good luck with your project.

Appears to me the only piece of English is number 8 (left blank) that has the proper grain flow. Agree that's its got some lighter wood on the one side, so your stock turner will no doubt slide it to the other side as much as possible. I think Feather Crotch Black Walnut looks good on high grade Winchesters and almost nothing else. PS. Go for it. Can't take it with you for sure.

Congrats for doing it your way. It goes against the recreation concept, but was thought ever given to feeling the engraver out on what he would do if given free reign?

Just for fun, my senses lean towards blank #6. I think the symmetry appears better, and I don't care for a busy wrist area. There could be other reasons, but on appearance alone, checkering and heavy figure don't always complement each other.

Sounds expensive, but as you suggested, you can�t take it with you (ever seen a hearse with a UHaul hooked behind?). I�ve done similar sorts of things in the past ....and, as long as one goes in knowing it�s not going to be a moneymaker, or a collectible (it will never be a collectible even though a 28b, to a purist Browning super collector), then that�s ok.

I watched an interview with a famous car restorer. The question was posed- What do you need to do a complete classic restoration? He responded, one hubcap so he knows what type of car he is restoring AND a blank check!

Great project!
I heard Angelo was retiring or already retired now. That was recently.
Hard to believe he could just sit around though being the type of worker he's always been.

I'm not sure any of the real talented craftsman ever really retire.

Roy Fishpaw was making grips for customers right up to the time he died last year at 88.

Hey Buzz, are you a spokesman for the the Browning Collectors Association?
By whose authority do you determine what will be a moneymaker, what will be collectible and what's OK?

You have some very nice looking blanks there to choose from. If I were you, I would consult with my stock maker to see what his choice might be. I know an excellent stocker who is a guild member and who is pretty picky about what he will make a stock from and what he will decline. Some of those have grain that might be very tough to work with. A good stocker can turn several of those pieces into beautiful stocks to do the gun proud, but he might also reject some. Just saying, I have never had stocks made from wood as nice as several of those.

Well Bob, As a Browning collector I can tell you that�s the case. Your gun, in addition will always carry a salt era serial # unless you change it and try to fool the unsuspecting. Upgrades are just that, upgrades. I believe it was you who mentioned something similar to me when I was thinking of upgrading a 21. So there.... you are a bit over sensitive Bob. Nevertheless I wish you good luck with your project. BTW, by you posting this thread on a public internet site, you are in essence soliciting commentary both positive and negative. Apparently, what I said you viewed in a negative light. Well, so be it. You started the thread and now that you heard something you didn�t want to hear, you came unglued. I say tough luck to that. Toughen up, man.

Hey Buzz,
For you to characterize questioning your authority to speak for the entire Browning Collectors Community as becoming "unglued",
then perhaps you should take a little of your own advice, "toughen up man".
For you to insinuate that my intentions are to fradulently try to pass off my upgrade as anything other than what it is is unfounded and a little insulting.

BTW Buzz,
Reread my original post. I solicited comment on wood blanks.
I'm really not interested in your pseudo expert opinion on restorations or upgrades.

Nothing wrong with having 10 grand in a 5 grand gun.

My mistake Bob, I was thinking this thread was the �Think it might be.....�� thread where you played your little game with us until Eightbore ding ding and dinged showing you were going to turn a POS short tang round knob salt gun you bought for a song into a magnificent Pointer grade upgrade. In terms of the wood which you solicited opinion, most look like fancy kindling imho. Sorry about my mistake.

"sounds expensive"...

thats what the cardinal in charge of the papel hord said, when the pope told him he was hiring signore da vinci to repaint and embellish the ceiling in the sistine chapel...

Maybe that's why it was Michelangelo who got the gig.

Markus

way i herd hit, day were the same guy, but had two ids fur tax reasons...jes sayin...

I love the plan. This is going to be truly a labor of love. Saving a nice Belgium Superposed from the trash dump.
Can't wait to see the finished project and hope you keep us posted as it progresses.

While not an "original" collector gun, I guarantee that the finished gun with premium wood, engraved by Angelo Bee will have the beady eyed boys all over it at any gun show.
Enjoy your project.

I�ve restored 2 Saltwood guns with Art in the past 5 years.
A 28 gauge Pigeon and a 20 Gauge Diana. This will be the 3rd.
Speaking from real world experience, the naysayers and poo pooers have no idea of actual value or desirability.
They�re just spewing their negative crap, taking liberties by speaking for entire populations
and making assertions that can�t be backed by fact.

It�s one thing to bang on a keyboard and and go on and on about what you think you know, blah, blah, blah.
It�s another to actually put your money where your mouth is, make the investment of time and resources and do the deed.
This project gun is going to be a keeper, however I have no doubts that if ever sold, (with full disclosure)
this soon to be Pointer Superlight will be a highly sought after money maker.

[/quote] however I have no doubts that if ever sold, (with full disclosure)
this soon to be Pointer Superlight will be a highly sought after money maker. [/quote]

Best laid plans, right? Best of luck, dont forget to post pics when fininshed!

bOb isn't this a little different than a restoration ?

I was thinking the exact same thing about those stock blanks buzz. Most of them would be best suited for handgun grips or ballpoint pen turning blanks. But that fancy feather and crotch figure draws in a lot of people with flamboyant Liberace type personalities, and makes them forget what makes a good gunstock.

You know lying keith (a nobody from nowhere),
I don�t believe I�d call you a nay sayer.
Given your punch bowl turd-like qualities,
I�d definitely characterize you as a poo pooer.

Why are you so nasty bOb...

Fact is after checking the prices of a pointer grade 28 guage superposed you might be onto something...I think if you had the stock lay out drawn on the wood it would be easier to see what you might end up with.

Good luck...Just a thought bOb.

OH MY GOD
I�m afraid our jOe has been body snatched and the alien pod left in his stead has hatched
yielding a thoughtful, constructive and appreciated participant to this thread.

If you come in peace, I say welcome.

It's refreshing to see that an unsolicited comment can be welcome under certain conditions.

Interesting and worthy project Bob. While not something I follow, I can only recall holding one 28ga. Superposed in my life. They are not exactly thick on the ground. The second set of barrels really makes it a special project. Choked differently than the first set?

It's been my observation that most Pointer wood is somewhat "linear".






I chose Blank #6 due to it's linear composition, the symmetry
from side to side and its' damn near straight grain through the wrist. Easy feathering and almost no fiddleback.
SKB, Second barrel set is factory choked at Full/Full. I'm thinking IMod/LMod, stamped Full/Mod

That blank is the current style choice for all Miroku grade 5�s
Feather crotch American black, straight in the hand, and feather flowing down from comb

oh oh, pretty, pretty wood...ohhhhh...

thanks fur sharin...

Bob:

Sounds like a wonderful idea and you'll have a gun to treasure when it's finished. I really like Superposed shotguns (own 3, a 12 gauge Lightning Trap 32 inch with a Broadway rib; a 20 gauge Pigeon Grade 28 inch with raised yellow and white gold pigeons inlaid into the receiver; a 20 gauge Grade 1 28 inch).

It's a real shame the Superposed isn't more highly valued in today's market than it seems to be. The handwork, particularly in the earlier ones, couldn't be duplicated for several times the price they bring today.

Please post photos of the project as it proceeds.

Rem

To rescue a salt gun is often a mission of love. Certainly not a money maker. Only two of your stock choices rise to being nearly worth the effort. English is always my first choice these days. You have figured out what you want and should enjoy the finished project. It amused me when you hear others act like turning a basket case into a pristine higher grade gun is wrong. They are the exact same gun with only a difference in factory finish levels and different wood grades. Do it and enjoy it. No hearse ever came with a luggage rack or trailer hitch and no reason to just let your money sit idle getting less interest than we got 50 years ago. Spend it, enjoy it. Leave a clear photo trail of what you had to do to fix Brownings bad decision to use salt cured wood. If they ever had lived along salt water they never would have made that decision.

X2

The only Superposed not valued in the marketplace is the plain 12 gauge field gun, in the gun shows that I frequent.
Small gauges and higher grades have lots of interest and high prices.

Uhhhh Ohhhh. Bob, the barking DoubleGun junk yard dog is probably going to brow beat you guys too since you said his project won�t be a moneymaker and that most of his stock blanks are inferior in quality, just like he did to me and Keith. Bottom line Bob, just what do you think a 28 ga super light Pointer upgrade is going to be worth when it�s all said and done?

Buzz, I could care less if Bob makes money on it. I didn�t say anything about making money. But if he does, by selling without deception, good for him. I don�t subscribe to the ethos of untouched originality. Bob is going to take a junker and perhaps turn it into something very nice. It�s a process I�ve been through a number of times and not just with guns. I�m looking forward to following the progress.

No more and no less.

You get what you earn. If some here don�t like the reaction their comments elicit, maybe they need to look in the mirror. If Bob is a junk yard dog, it�s probably because someone trained him. He doesn�t bark at or bite me.

Good evening KY Jon.
Let me preface this by saying I didn't undertake this project to make money. I want this gun to be a part of my modest cabinet.
I'll also say I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your input.
I will however respectfully disagree with you regarding the moneymaking aspect of a saltwood restoration.
I've done it twice now and made a modest to handsome profit on both. They were graded subgauge Superposed and were purchased
at better than reasonable prices due to the same type of hysterical, irrational fear of these guns that the likes of buzz here demonstrates.

As you know, the two things that must be done to restore a saltwood gun.are new wood and metal rejuvenation.
What makes this project different is an additional pair of facets, extra barrels and engraving.
A second barrel set is just that. Much like extra features on a new car, you got to pay to play.
The value of an original set of Belgian 28 gauge barrels is what it is.
Just as $100 bills never go on sale, neither do Belgian Super 28 gauge barrels.
If you want the barrels, you pay the price. I consider them a tangible asset, money in the bank.

The only real value question is the engraving. I've always been intrigued by the Pointer mystique.
Back in the day, guys jumped over the Pointer and purchased the Diana. Today, scarcity yields value.
Having the engraving done by a world class (and original Belgian engraver) seemed like a pretty good risk.
Is it worth the extra coin, upwards of a third of the cost of this restoration? It is to me.
Could I bee the only one in the world who'll appreciate it? Doubtful.


I don't believe anyone, anywhere knows their way around a Superposed better that Art Isaacson. His work is impeccable.
If you add up all the if's and's and but's, I couldn't be more comfortable putting my hard earned money into his capable hands.
Combine Art's track record, Angelo's track record and the track record of Belgian Superposed, 28 gauge, Pointer's and I say "I'm betting on me".

Canvasback and all the rest with constructive critism, thank you.
Naysayers and Poo Pooers, the floor is yours.

You have been lucky or good to make money off saltwood guns. I never enter into a project and expect to turn a profit. I like projects for the outcomes, not for the resale value. In fact I rarely sell guns other than those I have sold lately at auction to trim down my pile so my wife and kids don't have to do it later. And to date I have sold only one or two project guns. The rest were low grade duplicates of guns I have several of.

I expect every gun maker who ever lived wished he could make guns to a higher finish level or fancier stocked gun than the market would bear. I constantly am reminded that makers were forced to bring out ever simpler, plainer, cheaper models to get more volume to stay alive. Fox would have been happy as a clam if his lowest graded gun was a C or higher. Graded guns were a blank canvas.

Your choice of engravers is perfect. It would be interesting what grade Browning was his favorite to engrave. Perhaps it was the Pointer. I look forwards of pictures of the finished project.

One thing for sure Bob you'll never see a picture of KYs...

Bet it doesn�t have a spiffy white line pad on it, like yours....


Best,
Ted

What are you going to do about the serial numbers not matching ?

Now jOe,
While not Poo Pooing, your last comment comes very close to the Nay Saying slippery slope.
What exactly do you mean by numbers not matching?
And why is your name [censored?

I thought the barrels were likely serial numbered to the receiver ?

I have a couple questions.

Is duplicating pointer style engraving more desirable than having one-off custom engraving?

How does the cost of a restoration like this compare to having the Browning custom shop build you a brand new superposed?

I don't think jOe's question was "nay-saying" or "poo-pooing" in the least. I assume he is wondering whether that extra set of barrels and the new forend iron for them will be serial numbered to match the gun, or if they will be stamped NON-ORIGINAL so that future buyers know this is a non-original two-barreled set. You know... That full disclosure thing...

This ought to elicit enough salty tears from crying Bob to pit every Browning ever built.

HellO jOe,
These barrels have never been on a gun, hence no serial number




Hello RyanF,
I think the Pointer is the grail of Superposed. I have no interest in a one-off custom.
I'd guess a new custom shop Pointer would be at least double the cost.

Ugh, Lying keith (a nobody from nowhere),
What else is new, nothing constructive, just your usual brand of turds.
No one cares what you think. No one cares what you assume. No one cares what your hysterical comments ought to elicit.
Just a scared little man with a persecution complex. Just a nobody from nowhere. How sad for you.

Those look like 70�s - 80�s, maybe early 90�s Belgian made flat rib barrels, Bob. Have they not been subjected to Belgian proof? In other words, are there no proof marks?

You don't think there are people out there that would change serial numbers on a gun do you ?

Superposed Factoids (according to Schwing)

- 28 gauge and .410 bore were first introduced into the Superposed line in 1959

- Computerized record keeping beginning in 1964 (thru end of regular production in 1977) show only 2% of all Supers were 28 gauge

- Of those only 2% were Pointers

- Superposed Pointers accounted for .0004% of total production

- Superlight 28 gauge Pointers were never a regularly catalogued item, special order only, with total production less than 50, ever



Doesn't matter if they do, A call to the Browning historian will set all straight.

I've got a 1975 12b Superposed 'Special Trap' engraved by R.Bee -
must be the same family?

rgds from England
Gunter
NRA Life 1974

I think it matters if they change the serial number on a gun...

Don't you think anytime someone fakes something it hurts the collect-ability of it.

Rosa Bee,,,Angelo's sister.

As far as the upgraded 28,,have Angelo not only sign it but date it as well.

Art worked for Browning for 25 years, many of them repairing SaltWood guns.
Angelo worked for Browning for 25 years, many of them engraving SaltWood guns.
This gun has been a Browning shotgun since its production well over 25 years ago.
Point to the fake part. No serial numbers have been changed. WTF is your problem?

jOe, you've shown yourself to be one of if not thee most ethically and morally bankrupt contributors on the board.
I find the hypocrisy of your questioning coupled with your past unscrupulous behavior to be laughable.
The DoubleGun community is fortunate to have you as our defender of value and all things original.

I'm going to enjoy shooting the gun for the next 25 years and then I'm going to be buried with it when I die. Feel better?

I didn't say they'd been changed or that they were going to be changed on this gun.

Bob:

Check your math. 2% of 2% is .04%, at least on my calculator. Still makes
them darned rare in any case.

Rem

Allow me to clarify, according to Schwing, 1964 - 1977
Superposed shotguns...120,465
28 gauge Superposed ...2896
Superposed Pointers...51

51 / 120,465 = .00042 or 1 out of 2500

Sorry for the confusion.

Got it. But expressed as a percentage, it's 0.042%

Plus at least one phony

Always the last word, never a kind word.
At what point in your life did you become such a big a$$hOle
you stopped caring that just about everyone thinks your a big a$$hOle?

Bob here's what a Browning collector sent me after reading your thread . I'm posting it with his permission.

Quote:

The whole thing is, less than 50 super light Pointer 28 ga were factory made. Collectors know superlights were not salt. Now, there's another one. Upgrades of rare pieces diminish the sanctity of factory original. He's making it a superlight so no one will question the salt. Rare guns like that were not always recorded by browning. So, who is to say it's not factory original when it's done. These upgrades serve to dilute the rarity and splendor and sanctity of the factory original.

End of quote...does "sanctity" matter bOb ?

bOb I sure hate you sold that really nice model 21 Winchester to finance this unsanctimonious project.

sanc�ti�ty
noun
noun: sanctity; plural noun: sanctities

the state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly.

jOe, get a grip. It's a gun, made by the hand of man.
There is nothing holy, sacred, or saintly about it.

sanc�ti�mo�ni�ous
adjective derogatory
adjective: sanctimonious

making a show of being morally superior to other people.

jOe, you've shown yourself to be one of if not thee most ethically and morally bankrupt contributors on the board.
You can't be trusted therefore you trust no one. Read my lips, I don't need the money.

Sanctimonious describes people like you, not things like guns or projects to restore them.

As far as your use of the word "unsanctimonious",
let's just call it a Freudian slip on your part and I'll accept it as a quasi-compliment. Thanks.

.....and Bob, you�ve proven unequivocally that you, yourself are the growling/barking �junk yard dog� of this forum since you ALWAYS have a nasty disposition when challenged.

bOb since you got so much money why bother building a junk yard pointer grade when real ones are for sale.

Make no sense to me.

What else makes no sense to me is that the people you rant and rave about being Browning people worked for Browning for ever would be involed in your plan to build a reproduction that some where down the road could be mistaken for the real deal.

Bob seriously what are you thinking ?

Why do you care Frank? It is not your gun or your project. If Bob planned on defrauding anyone over the authenticity of the gun do you think he would post the pictures on an open forum?

On and it is involved not "envolved"

Really Buzz? You don't think jOe's incessant trolling has something to do with Bob's response? Personally I think Bob has remained quite civil given jOe's provocation.

Theres come the Canadian Mountie and the rOcky Mountain gun farmer to the rescue.

You're the only one accusing bOb of anything....

I never said or thought bOb had plans on defrauding anyone.

The defrauding will be beyond bObs control at some point.

You can do better than that at playing the victim Frank....give it another go.

YOU are implying Bob has nefarious plans in this post Frank. He is obviously laying out the whole story here. Nothing at all wrong with this project.