|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums10
Topics38,479
Posts545,201
Members14,410
| |
Most Online1,335
Apr 27th, 2024
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,718 Likes: 479 |
Did they ream out the chamber at the same time they altered the forcing cone area or is that a normally thin area that just gave it up over time? I think that is a thin area that got a small crack in it, then got weaker over time as the crack got longer or the entire chamber area became separated.
I had a Fox 20 which had a small split area on the left barrel that vented into the space between the ribs. Barrels had been cut and they never sealed the end back up so moisture got into the area between the ribs. Over time it became a split that vented gasses. I noticed it when I was going to fill in the space between the barrels for a rust rebluing. 20" from the chamber area it made no real difference to me. It was ported into the space between the barrels and ribs. Had that been in between the chamber I could see it blowing up just like this gun did. Rust is a very bad thing for guns.
.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314 |
I appreciate everyone's (well not quite everyone) thoughts. This is a close up of the area in question. It is unfortunate that the missing chunk of barrel could not be found 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,728 Likes: 50
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,728 Likes: 50 |
I find it hard to believe that Hunter Arms Co. would pass the barrel in question with that thin of a wall in that area. It is also hard to judge how far back the thin wall is compared to the heaver wall down from it. At this point it would start to curve up but if the heavier wall was say .150, the thin area looks to be half of that and would definitely not pass their inspection.
Back then Hunter Arms proof tested their guns with twice the powder that was used back then. There were no proof marks stamped on the flats until the 1920's.
Also the groove that looks to be even with the extractor down from the breech would not be from the company.
Be interesting in what is found in the left barrel.
David
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415 |
I do not think the chambers were oval prior to blowing. If so, the fired shells that Drew got with the gun should bear that out, but I'll bet against it.
I also do not think chamber lengthening was involved either. That chamber blew too far back, and was too thin from the day it rolled out the door. The solder behind it does not look too well done either, so if there was a bit of void in places, that would be a spot where pressures would work the steel, perhaps creating a crack where the darkened area of the break is. From there some corrosion or just more time and fatigue and eventually, it had to let go.
In any event, I think this gun was doomed when it was born.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/qclHjMQ.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415 |
It would be interesting to section the left barrel in the area where the walls are so thin on the right. Any chance that could be done?
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 232
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 232 |
When used in explosive devices, the main cause of damage from a detonation is the supersonic blast front (a powerful shock wave) in the surrounding area. This is a significant distinction from deflagrations where the exothermic wave is subsonic and maximum pressures are at most one eighth[citation needed] as great. Therefore, detonation is a feature for destructive purpose while deflagration is favored for the acceleration of firearms' projectiles. However, detonation waves may also be used for less destructive purposes, including deposition of coatings to a surface[25] or cleaning of equipment (e.g. slag removal[26]) and even explosively welding together metals that would otherwise fail to fuse. Pulse detonation engines use the detonation wave for aerospace propulsion.[27] The first flight of an aircraft powered by a pulse detonation engine took place at the Mojave Air & Space Port on January 31, 2008.[28]
So very often we hear a very rapid Deflagration described as a Detonation, but they are Horses of Two different colors or Apples & Oranges, however, one prefers to put it. Purely & simply the charge in this gun in question did not detonate. OK. So a pipe bomb loaded with Green Dot doesnt actually detonate? Not in the same sense as a high explosive would detonate, John. The difference is burn rate, high explosive usually considered to burn at a minimum of 3,000 meters per second. The deflagration you typically get from a propellant, like smokeless powder, is the result of a slower burn rate. Typically slower than the speed of sound. So while a pipe bomb appropriately packed with smokeless powder, especially if ignited by something that will give it a significant jolt (like a primer in a shell, or a blasting cap in a pipe bomb) will make a pretty impressive "boom!", it will be a much less violent blast than if the pipe bomb contained even a smaller quantity of a high explosive, like C-4--which burns at a much faster rate. As Miller points out, detonation (high explosive) vs deflagration (low explosive). OK, that makes sense. Sematics aside, somehow that chamer, and shell exploded. I suspect that dark area inicates corrosion that weakened the area. Add to that a ammo quality and 19th century design specs, boom.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,715 Likes: 415 |
Drew, can you see the solder joint on the left side? From viewing the right, it appears that you may be able to visually see how thick it is directly from the rear.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 737 Likes: 23
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 737 Likes: 23 |
I agree with BrentD. I think there's a good possibility that the chambers are original. I don't think most people realize how rough chambers can be on these old guns. And how would they know about, or measure that thin wall, in a manufacturing environment of 100 years ago?Maybe the barrel sets were chambered after the barrels were joined up. Does anyone really know the sequence of assembly that Smith used? I think they probably were built that way and finally gave up. That gun lasted a lot longer than the manufacturer probably intended. I think Gunmakers would be amazed that were still shooting these things 80 to 140 years later. This event is also a good reminder to stick to low pressure loads if at all possible. Anyone of us could have hidden defects in one of our old treasures.
Last edited by Hammergun; 05/04/19 09:00 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314
Sidelock
|
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,417 Likes: 314 |
We'll hopefully know a lot more when the barrels arrive.
To be clear, the wedge shaped top rib extension and hook are brazed to the barrels. See the images on p. 1. The joined metals have a very strong bond ie. a mono-metal, and the top wedge and bottom wedge should be considered as contributing to the barrel wall strength.
METL charges about $1000 for a formal Failure Analysis. Sectioning of the barrel and examination with photomicroscopy alone could be performed.
When discussing barrels alone, properly designed and manufactured barrels, of the correct steel for the application, free of defects or corrosion, used with loads for which they were designed and proved (by the maker in the U.S.), have an indefinite lifetime. Unfortunately, bad things happen to barrels in 110 years of use, abuse, and inexpert barrelsmithing.
The hang tag that came on that gun listed 2 1/2 dram 1 oz. shot, and Nitro powder loads then had similar pressures as today. And again, this is in reference to the barrels, not the wood or internal parts which do indeed wear, and wear out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 232
Sidelock
|
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 232 |
We'll hopefully know a lot more when the barrels arrive.
To be clear, the wedge shaped top rib extension and hook are brazed to the barrels. The joined metals have a very strong bond ie. a mono-metal, and the top wedge and bottom wedge should be considered as part of the barrel wall.
METL charges about $1000 for a formal Failure Analysis. Sectioning of the barrel and examination with photomicroscopy alone could be performed.
When discussing barrels alone, properly designed and manufactured barrels, of the correct steel for the application, free of defects or corrosion, used with loads for which they were designed and proved (by the maker in the U.S.), have an indefinite lifetime. Unfortunately, bad things happen to barrels in 110 years of use, abuse, and inexpert barrelsmithing.
The hang tag that came on that gun listed 2 1/2 dram 1 oz. shot, and Nitro powder loads then had similar pressures as today. And again, this is in reference to the barrels, not the wood or internal parts which do indeed wear, and wear out. If it comes to that, I will ante up.
|
|
|
|
|
