doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Daly Diamond Grades

Any literature on this accessible via the Internet?

With picture examples too?

Wouldnt that be the same as a Miroku Diamond Grade?

Sorry, meant Prussian Dalys. Actually found it at http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-charles-daly/

You can also order SD & G catalogues from the time from Cornell Publications. Get an estimated date for the gun and then order the closest catalogue reprint.

Interesting! Thanks to vam5067 for posting the link to the Daly info from Ken Georgi. My Lindner Daly (20 ga./Damascus/ejector/light weight) seems to match the 1899 description of the 155 grade guns. Well worth $185, I would think.

I do believe that if you are interested in Lindner Dalys you should purchase the excellent book available from the German Gun Collectors. It has a lot of information available in it that you would find pertinent.

Doug is correct. It's titled -
Prussian Charles Daly Imports published by the German Gun Collectors Association.

Awesome, thanks for the insight guys. I have a 20ga Diamond grade with the crown over the pistols on the underside of the barrels but the right muzzle is blown (someone, sometime, must have shot it unwittingly with it plugged). I'm trying to get in touch with Ken Georgi to see what his opinion on value would be if I fixed it properly versus just cutting two inches off the barrels. Gun is otherwise in decent shape and locks up tight.

Post pics here. Ken will see it and you�ll get others� opinions.

I know of no proper way or repairing a blown tube other than shortening the barrels. You could sleeve them or re-barrel but I'm not sure you are much better off. I just shortened a set of Westley Richards drop lock barrels because the muzzle was blown. He was very lucky though and lost less than an inch of length and still has plenty of choke.

Bummer! Crown over crossed pistols suggests damascus barrels? Do all the numbers match? Ejectors or extractor? The Grade of the Diamond Quality guns was, in part, defined by that feature. The year of manufacture was also a factor in determining which grade. The most common Diamond Quality grade (I think) was "275") w/ejector,"225" w.o. Usually two or three fine banknote engraved game scenes and usually no gold embellishment. These Lindner guns were available from before 1899 to WW1. Grade "375" w/ejector, "325" w/o. Heavy, deep chiseled Germanic engraving, lots of gold critters. For $500 you could order a "Regent Diamond" Quality. The rib was marked "Regent Diamond" and a gold crown on the bottom of the action. Very few were made so beware of fakes. Ken's book is a must have for Daly guys.

Not sure how to post pics but it's in fair condition. All numbers match and it does have ejectors. I think it would be a 200 grade based on it being a Diamond Quality gun made prior to 1892. This gun has a deer with quail on the underside of the action with no gold inlays so definitely not a Regent Diamond. Wanna figure out what I should list it for seeing Superior and Empire grade Dalys listed for more than $5K on Gunsinternational.

I kinda suspected that may be the case Steve, but it�s still depressing to hear there is no road back for vam5067�s Daly that doesn�t leave it significantly altered.

The 275 is what I have and, as luck would have it, my favourite grade level. Either the 275 or the extractor version. I find the 300 level and 500 level a bit much for my tastes. Not typically a fan of gold inlay on firearms.

What would be the length if you clean it up? 30 cut to 28 isn't bad. 26 cut to 23, not so good.

Ejectors were introduced in 1888. By 1892, Diamond quality ejector guns were designated "250" grade. If you are willing to share the serial number it would help Ken's research as official keeper of the Daly data base.
You have a Lindner built gun and to me more desirable than post lindner Prussian Dalys. The terms "Empire" and "Superior' don't show up until several years after lindner died.
Dalys were stupid expensive in the day and many surviving examples have been rebarreled. I currently have two rebarreled
Diamond Quality Dalys that are great shooters. It's expensive but very few 20 gauge Diamond Quality Lindner Dalys were built and fewer survive today. Bring it to the Southern.

Barrel length would go from 28" to 26" so not unusual on a 20ga. Serial number is 369X.

Cutting the barrels and prepping them for blacking should be less expensive than having a matching Damascus pattern mated to the damaged barrel. From what I'm gathering, this gun is valuable enough to recoup my investment.

Sounds like the beginning of a plan. What condition is the rest of the gun? Is the damascus pattern crisp and well defined? The remaining bores clean and straight? The wood solid with acceptable dimensions? Are the engraving and screw heads still sharp and well defined? Trigger pulls and ejectors work satisfactorily? If the answers are "yes", IMHO, go for it, someone will surly be interested. 26" Diamond Quality 20 ga with Thin-walls would make a great shooter.
Cheers,
Jon

Gun is in good condition except barrels which are fair. Because I have to alter the barrels I'm going to refinish them as well. Might as well make it look good if it's not original. Bores are shiny. Wood is faded but I've seen worse. Haven't tested the triggers and ejectors but LOP is 14". Thanks for the kind words!

Posted on behalf of the OP. These are the only photos available. OP not yet in possession of the gun.

Question one: Are you sure this is a 20 and not a 16? The value is two to one, twenty being the two. Second, a cut gun like this with no choke is worth a bunch more to a collector than one with screw chokes installed. If it is a 20 and can survive with 26" or more of barrel, it is a very valuable gun. Screw chokes, not so much.

OP, I just reread your comments. You don't reblack Damascus barrels, you refinish them properly. You cut for the refinish at the maximum length, not an even length hoping to fool a future owner. The future owner will know the gun has been cut, whatever you do. You can save hundreds of dollars on your restoration and make your gun worth hundreds of dollars more, if you don't refinish the wood. Your wood looks fine and can be improved by a light cleaning without a refinish.

Where are you located in PA? Some of the posters on this thread are located close to PA, depending on which area in PA we are discussing.

eightbore, I figured it would make sense to cut it to 26" only because it would be somewhat more normal but I suppose the longer I can leave it, the more choke I can preserve. As far as reblacking or rebrowning of the barrels goes, I don't know what the term is for making the barrels end up in a black/white pattern as I've gathered is original (not brown and white). I intend to leave the wood and metal (except the barrels) in their current condition - even if I wanted to fully restore the gun to its former glory, I presently don't have the funds to make that happen.

I'm actually in Camden, ME now - I have to update my profile.

Better to do nothing than to have something done by a less than skilled smith. Be careful to whom you entrust it to. If funds are in short supply, better to do nothing than to pay for less than great work.

Just about anyone buying the gun would rather it is as it is, than it be further messed with by a smith not up to the task.

Posted on behalf of the OP:

Posted on behalf of the OP:

Lovely hidden, rectangular 3rd fastener.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks Raimey! Being new to Prussian Dalys, I don't know them like you may but this one sure feels nice.

The spectacular Damascus pattern is 'Manufacture Extra', a Lutticher (Liege) Corche pattern; this barrel re-finished by Dr Gaddy, on a Diamond Quality marked 'Extra Fine Damascus.'



I very much agree with Canvasback that if your desire is to sell the gun, do nothing. Anything done wrong will substantially decrease its value.

Drew, indeed it says Extra Fine Damascus on the rib of the barrel. Heading to the post office as I write this to ship to Dewey Vicknair of Vicknair Restorations. Can't wait to see what a "proper cleaning" will do to the surface rust on the barrels and other metal furnishings!

The picture that Doctor Drew posts looks suspiciously like the pigeon barrels on a Daly two barrel set that I used to own. If so, Doctor Gaddy did not refinish them, they are in original finish.

Dewey Vicknair will be cutting the barrels. I suspect the OP can rest assured that Mr Vicknair's reputation and skills won't harm the gun or it's value too much.

So I've finally wrested the gun from FedEx and I'm almost speechless. The wait was worth it. Pictures to follow if I can figure it out.

Forgot I need online storage to post pics...also, the gun did end up being a 16ga and not a 20ga.

Try jpgbox, it works with minimal effort.
Karl

IMGBB is the easiest...

I�ve got his pics. I�ll be posting them in the morning.

Posted on behalf of the OP. Gun has been worked on by Dewey Vicknair since last pics.

Just speaking on behalf of myself, now that you have the gun back, can we see some pics of the muzzles where Dewey had to do the repair?

Thanks Canvasback! I'll try to put those up tonight when I'm done work.

That's a 16 I'd own!

What bbl. length did you end up with?

Here we go:

Retapped bead:

New grip cap:

Recoil Rob, 26". I'm now looking at getting them to Mike Orlens to reestablish some choke. The gun is presently choked Cylinder/Skeet...if I can get at least Skeet/Improved Cylinder, I'll be happy.

Pattern it first, Cyl/Skeet can be a nice setup. I have an NID that was cut down to 28, probably from 30", I hit more with it than most others.

I will but it surprisingly still balances in front of the hinge pin so I'd like to take some weight out of the barrels too, wall thickness permitting.

That�s a beautiful gun. Congratulations on bringing it back. I am a lover of the 16ga, so for me, it�s as nice as a 20 to me.

Thanks, I'm pretty enamored with it. Yeah, there's only two, 16ga Diamond Qualitys for sale online compared to a handful of 12gas. I would now be interested in a Featherweight 12 though, haha

so would i I'd forego getting an English gun for that.

Well that was fast:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101474691

Steve, I owned the exact duplicate of the gun you are referring to. Incredible in all respects! And the engraving style in those early Daly�s was very special. A good friend of mine now owns it, along with a number of other Diamond grades. Quite a sight!

Wow that was quick...

Joe,
I will likely own one some day. They are REALLY nice guns. The thing is, I hardly look at shotguns since I bought my Holland. I buy and play mostly with old rifles these days. I still love shotguns, I just found "the one" for me. I bet that collection of your friend's is quite a sight to see. Hope you are staying well in these trying times.
Steve

Steve, your Holland sounds much like a side lock Sauer I bought a few years ago. Made about 1895 there is something magical about the way it fits me and even with 30� barrels it handles like a wand. Not a fancy gun but pretty and the craftsmanship is absolutely tops, equal to anything Lindner put out, and a whole lot less expensive. not surprised since there seems to be a great likelihood many Lindner�s were either made or began life in Sauer�s shop.

I hear you Steve. were we being hoodwinked?

Yeah, I list all my shotguns for sale. I like to buy, shoot, and sell. I set the list price where it's at, hoping it won't go quickly.

Backboring such a gun to establish choke would lower its value quite a bit for a serious collector. It ranks right up there with screw in chokes and variable choke devices.

eightbore, it is my understanding the gun is already "non-collectable" because the barrels have been cut but I suppose that may be subjective...

Another Diamond grade:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101479248

Whip me beat me make me wright bad checks! WOW!!

Wow, Josh is optimistic. That gun traded hands 4 years ago for $9200

Yes, I agree Canvasback. Especially with the cut butt and pad added. I would hesitate to buy even at the price you mention.

Holy heck! I don't feel so bad listing mine for $9,900 now.

Mark I have that exact same SBT in your link, including the same recoil pad and same figure in the butt stock, except mine has more Case coloring left.