doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com External hammer guns banned.

More details than I�ve got. Remember, this is a family hunt club that was formed in the 30s or 40s, and is structured so only family can belong. My friend got to see it, but, by design, he will never be a member, and thus, will never hunt the club.

I don�t know the date of the accident, or, who was there, just what the response from the club owners was, which, to be honest, is just a �we gotta do something� reaction, a notion that leads to nonsense like banning a design of gun.

I don�t even hunt deer. But, I am a guy who would have a bad case of the willies with either the muzzle being pointed at me on the way down, or, the gun being out of my grasp and in battery. Change either, and both of the two incidents I posted become just another day in the woods.
Best,
Ted

Ted;
I am in full agreement, definitely should be unloaded. Note that I put the "IF" in capital letters & quotes. I would hope that I would never be so foolish as to actually take that route.

Accidental Discharge vs. Negligent Discharge.

In my mind, an accidental discharge is a firearm discharging when the firearm mechanism fails in a mechanical manner; the sear interface breaks or fails due to wear or damage, the firearm is dropped, safety is on and it fires because of mechanical failure.


Negligent Discharge is when overt human error is involved. Some call it operator headspace issue, some call it a brain fart some call it stupidity but its human error none the less.

this includes but is not limited to:
lowering loaded firearms from tree stands,
crossing fences with loaded firearms
finger on trigger, safety off in anticipation of a shot when target is not present and hunter falls and through "sympathetic response", he /she pulls trigger discharging firearm
"I didn't know it was loaded" events.

There are many more but ND's are different from AD's.

In my time in the military, and on all of my deployments there were numerous ND's. Usually occurring at clearing barrels.
the standard procedure when entering certain places on FOB's was to clear your weapon(s). stand in front of clearing barrel, verify weapon on safe, muzzle in barrel, remove magazine, retract bolt or slide, eject chambered round, lock bolt or slide to rear, visually and physically inspect chamber, breech face and magazine well or feed tray, release bolt or slide, weapon off safe, pull trigger.

do you know how often soldiers, marines, airmen , screwed that up? and no rank was immune. Of course, you could get an Article 15 for an ND. Lots of General Officers wanted heads when this happened.
I suggested an easy fix;
1. weapon on safe, remove mag, pull bolt/slide to rear ejecting chambered round. inspect chamber. run bolt/slide forward. place muzzle under ship, take weapon off safe, pull trigger. if there was a loud bang, the offending moron who couldnt do a proper clearing of their weapon was removed form the gene pool and would never propagate another like minded creature and after one or two of those events, everyone would really take it seriously and do the technique properly!!!!
needless to say, my idea was not adopted.

Of course I am being facetious, but you get the point.

Seems to me that the hunter�s safety course is designed for the lowest common denominator. Perhaps making the course more intelllectually engaging and and the test more difficult with more questions about real life safety situations. Probably would help if it wasn�t one and done, but rather a retesting requirement every 5 years.

I don't understand the purpose of pulling the trigger on an empty chamber. It's either empty or its not. I know two veterans who pulled triggers on their supposed empty guns and had accidental discharges. One shot himself in the hand after dropping the magazine from his duty pistol. The other dropped a mag from his personal AR and fired a round through the walls of his house. That last step of pulling the trigger seems to be an issue. But of course they thought the guns were empty. I don't think an uncocked, unloaded gun is any safer than a cocked and unloaded gun. Assuming they are both really empty.

Hunting, as a pastime, is safer, by a wide margin, than many sports and other outdoor activities. It is safer than bicycle riding, badminton, tennis, running, and any team sports.

Attempting to make it safer is noble, but, ignores the fact that perhaps that effort really belongs in other pastimes? When I�m in the woods hunting, I am pretty much my own guardian, much different than when I am riding down WI. highway 35, on the shoulder on my bicycle, and at the mercy of drivers and their connected devices.

I suggest we could start with the use of a connected device in a motor vehicle while said vehicle is in operation being a felony, with an automatic 25 year sentence, and a minimum $150,0000 fine. The same crime, where a bystander is killed or injured, mandatory life sentence.

I believe this would make the world a far safer place than any remedial hunter safety courses.

Best,
Ted

As an afterthought;
It is a possibility this gentleman in the treestand totally lowered the hammer, rather than placing it on half cock. NO hammer gun should have the hammer lowered on the cap or primer. It only takes a surprisingly light blow to ignite a primer in this situation, much less than enough to break the sear or notch.

This could very easily have occurred in lowering the gun should the hammer have struck a limb or such. Again this not a fault of the gun having a hammer but what we called in the machine shop I worked in OT or OP, ie Operator Trouble or Operator Problem.

I once read an article by a gentleman who was otherwise extremely knowledgeable on muzzleloaders. He recommended when carrying a caplock rifle hunting to lower the hammer all the way down on the cap. His reason was that a blow to the hammer should the gun be dropped or something could break the half-cock mechanism & fire the gun, "WRONG", the blow required to break the half-cock is much more than required to fire the cap with the hammer resting on it.

How hard is it to figure out that you need to lower and raise up unloaded guns? It is not like time counts when you are getting into or out of a tree stand. Go slow. Unload the gun. Do not be stupid. I have seen countless examples of shooters handling guns which makes me cringe. Clay target shooters are some of the worst. They get so use to handing loaded guns that they wave them like a broom stick and forget that they can kill or injure.

I quit a very good duck and goose hunting club 40 years because I got tire of hunting with one slob who refused to adhere to basic gun safety. I could stand him being lazy but will not put up with a slob who handles guns like a child or drunk.

Of course it's for the lowest common denominator. And being more intellectually engaging wouldn't be a bad start.

Just unload the gun. What is wrong with people?

But you can't fix willful stupidity and the government shouldn't be in the business of legislating common sense. In fact, the widespread growth of the nanny state just works to exacerbate these kinds of problems by encouraging the abdication of personal responsibility. Stupidity should have consequences.

cback, no use getting a little testy about this. Some folks just feel safe with a little card in their pocket, as long as it hasn't expired.