doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identify belgian guild gun?

That is correct. Post 1924 the gauge and shell length were inside an Omega lying.

Wow!!! this gun is old. Will it really be alright to shoot smokeless, modern shells through it? What pressures should I limit it to? Maybe 3/4 - 1 1/8oz@ sub 9000psi?

No question this gun is older than 1924. It was made for 2 3/4" length shells (70MM) but it wasn't made for modern 2 3/4" shell pressures, especially SAAMI standard 12ga shells as currently manufactured. If it were mine I would want to stay below 1 1/8oz and 9000psi as you suggested. There are plenty of 12ga loading formulae which will give you that and provide full performance. If you don't reload, might check out some of the vintage loads available from RST and Polywad. I use 2 1/2" loads from RST in a gun at least as old as yours.

Every mark you have described is related to the proofing of the gun. Both the gauge mark and the barrel weight are of the style that was used before 1924.

The barrels weighed 2.738 lbs at the time of proof.

20.6mm is the bore .811".

Choke 17.5mm = .689", 18.3mm .713""

The service pressure during this period for a 12ga was expressed in a load. In this case as 5.8 grams of powder and 35.5 grams of shot. This applies only to the Liege proof house around 1906. Later (post 1924) the service pressures were increased.

Nothing indicates a makers mark. Serial numbers do not indicate year or maker. The *N, etc are controller's marks, which tell us nothing during this period.

Judging by the sling swivels attached, this gun was originally used in Europe.

Pete

But does your gun have 2 1/2 chambers or 2 3/4? Or, does it matter? i reload, so no problem getting low pressure loads.
I've got some great recipes for low pressure loads from 3/4 -1 1/8 oz. That with some hard nickel shot should do the trick for roosters & Chukar. I will get busy soon since doves open in 8 days. yee haww. Also bring my Browning ultra XS is 28GA which is great for dove.

so 5.8 grams of powder is 89.50 grains and and 35.5 grams of shot is 1 1/4 ounces. Therefore it was proofed to 1 1/4 ounce loads pushed by 89.50 grains of powder and whatever pressure that would create. But, one should probably stay well below what the gun was proofed for right? So, I'd be safe with 1 1/8oz loads at 8500-9000 PSI I would think - no?

jigman48 no one is going to tell you that it will be safe with any load. We can't examine the gun so we don't know if it would be safe. Take it to a good double gunsmith and let him tell you if it's safe.

17.5/25.4=.689" ;; 18.3/25.4=.720", might want to double check your math on that 18.3 dimension.
Choke on Belgian guns was marked by several methods over the years, but generally when two dia's were given as a fraction as appears on this one they indicate both bore & choke dia's. I would thus suspect the bbl marked 17.5/18.3 had a .720" bore dia & a .689" choke dia or .031" of choke constriction. If only one size is given along with the word choke it shows bore size & simply shows the bbl was choked, but not to what extent. I believe though in all cases the bore dia was given as this was the important dimension as regardss to proof.
The 89.5 grains of powder would have been Black Powder & equals to about 3¼ drams, so the gun was proofed for a 3¼-1¼ load @ then current pressure levels, as stated not todays SAAMI standard. "IF" in proper condition the load you mention should fall within those parameters.

jigman84
Try to keep pressures and recoils low, not only to protect the barrels but also the wood. In the case of your gun I'd worry more about cracking/splitting the stock then damaging the barrels. BTW I worked one fall about 19 years ago outside of Lind WA. I remember seeing lots of pheasants during my work in the field and my travels back and forth to the job site. Lind was a nice little town, in fact I found the general population on the eastern side of the Cascades much more open and welcoming then those on the west side.
Steve

Miller,

Well, I ran it again. Of course you are right! That is what I get for posting at 2am. You are also correct that Black Powder should be assumed. The smokeless loads of that day simply do not equate to modern smokeless.



jigman48,

I would assume at this point that if you sneeze through those barrels they will turn to dust and the stock will become a pile of oil soaked splinters.

The point is that gun has to be examined in person by a competent gunsmith, as others have said. I purchased a perfectly good gun about the same age. I had it examined. Upon disassembly a crack was found in the receiver. Would the next shot have destroyed? I did not want to know, so I paid to have it welded. You can not judge what you can not see.

Pete