doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help identify belgian guild gun?

Just picked up an ejector 12GA swamped rib double for a couple hundred bucks. Can anyone help me identify it's maker?
On the flats is: *N over stick figure of lion over PV * P EL over candle stick? over diamond with 12C in it over a crowned oval with ELG in it. Then the number P.1K242.3 Gold inlayed "S" on safety and matching serial numbers throughout. Markings on bbls just underneath action is "choke 17.5/18.3 then those weird scriptive EL's I cited earlier. I know the E is an E but the L I'm not 100% on because its slightly superimposed over the E. The E and the L is like hand written script. Hereare some pix. I'm wondering if its Neumann Freres? Don't really have any idea.
Here are some pix.

3 of 4 pictures don't show up for me and the one that does is too blurry for information such as proof marks. However, you did a very good job of describing a set of typical Liege, Belgium, proofmarks. I'd guess not a Neumann as they would/should have marked their guns. Best guess is a "cottage" gun by one or more workmen to make some beer money. If it is in any kind of condition at all, you got a very good deal. There would have been nothing wrong with its functionality when it left the Liege Proof House, that is for sure.

Doubt you will ever know who made it. As for quality, looks to be a fairly typical decently finished Belgian boxlock. BTW, the maker's name is not an indication of quality - you have to figure that out for the individual gun. Most makers supplied a wide range of quality. Careful polish, ripple free barrel striking and boring, engraving coverage and quality of engraving,and wood quality are the hallmarks of quality. These will usually occur in harmony - rarely will yo find a low quality gun with a lot of any one of these characteristics.

You'll need to try again on the barrel flats.
Just put together a 'Belgian Maker's and Proof Marks' album which explains most of the stamps
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181

You really need better resolution on the pics. The candlestick you refer to is a Perron(Tower/Steps). The intertwined E&L is for the provisional proof. The P.1K242.3 should be 1Kg 242.3 - weight. With the 12C in a diamond, I would venture to guess if may have been made between 1890 & 1924. Better definition pics would help.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks all:

Yeah, there is no name anywhere on the gun. Probably like you said, a cottage gun for beer money. If its as old as 1899-1924 I would be surprised because if so, it's in the best condition for even 1925 of any used gun I've ever seen. It's also got 2 3/4" chambers which I realize may have been added, but still.
The bores are mirror, there is only one very small minor rust pit that doesnt appear very old on the bbl exterior. In fact, I rubbed most of it off already with some 0000 steel wool and break free. That said, should I limit load pressures in this gun?
Doesnt the PV indicate its fine for modern powder? What do those choke numbers translate into as far as cyl/Imp Cyl/Mod/Full etc?
What does the D=70/20.6 mean? Thanks. I will try and get netter resolution pic's of bbl flats.

Also, don't know if it matters but the engraving pattern on the dolls head is oak leafes. The rest of the gun is just very fine scroll everywhere. I know it didnt show up well in the pix. But I thought maybe the oak leafes might be an indicator or style that a particular maker used. Not sure if dolls head was the right term there, but I'm talking about the area right in front of the top lever. Also the Gold inlaid "S" on the safety might help.

The 70 might be 70mm chambers. But good pic of the barrel flats would tell all, or use the site referenced above.

So Rocketman are you saying that a arm stamped Purdey may indeed not be a Purdey? Or does that just apply to sleeving or lining?

Kind Regards,


Raimey
rse

If you were relying on the name Purdey to establish an individual gun's quality and you encountered one of their graded sidelocks or a boxlock, you would be set up for a royal (wait, that would be in the case of an H&H) hosing. The name is important to market price at a level of about 2 fold. Actual original quality grade and current condition each are worth 20 fold. Sleeving, refinishing, restoration, etc. factor into current condition.

Rocketman:

I couldn't pass up the opportunity to ask after all the many pages on the Purdey and the barrel sleeving or lining found somewhere around here.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Neumann Freres is a good guess...T W Stake may be a closer guess...somehow those two names are associated