doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com shops that restock at reasonble prices???

I hate to burst your bubble, but this has been going on since man invented the gun.

I was thinking I might could do me some gun farming....

Play all day and nite on the internet making a few bucks while just handling the paper work and complaints.

Sounds like the life of Riley.

I got to get me a web site in my signature line...

Way more profitable selling high end guns on consignment trust me.

I wish you well in your new endeavor Farmer Frank Cox.

I always get a chuckle when I remind myself of the time that the sub of a very well known restoration gunsmith forgot to reinstall the mainsprings of my shotgun before the name smith shipped it to me.
I�m not against subbing things out. I think it�s a normal thing.

If you are going to sub out work, at least function test things before final shipping though. LOL

Why does it bother you Joe? The Brits have been doing this for a few hundred years. About time we caught up. And for your information it�s not just gunsmiths who do the here. The first batch of Ithaca Mag 10�s were not all made in house. Winchester ribs on their early guns can be debated as being in house or farmed out. Ruger tried out sourcing finishing on their guns at one time. Colt lost the ability to case harden and had to farm it out while they got back into doing it themselves.

So a gunsmith farms out welding or sone other task. Who cares? Some of these special welding setup are amazing. But who can master everything. I�d rather have someone in overall charge getting things done to a high level than just doing everything in house to a lower standard. Same thing with engraving. Send it out if need be. No one thinks twice about that.

I was reading Dewey Vicknair's blog yesterday and on one Elsie restoration, he did all the work, barrel blackening, case hardening, engraving, etc. However in another project, he did all the metal and woodwork, and noted it was off to Geoffroy. Geoffroy Gournet is in Easton; Dewey in Lititz, PA. For business reasons, no gunsmith in his right mind would do business out of Intercourse, PA. Gil

It doesn't actually bother jOe. But lately, jOe feels like Keith has his back, so he's been emboldened to let his inner a$$hole out more often. This is just an example of jOe trying to pile on SKB because he thinks it will curry favour with Keith.

I also have zero issues when a Gunsmith farms out specialized work. Not every Gunsmith has a milling machine, a hoenig pantograph, cnc or wire edm, laser welding capabilities, etc. It�s a completely normal way of doing business throughout the manufacturing world, gunmaking & smithing is no exception.

My problem is when people say things like, �we did this� or �we did that�, �I had to do this...�. A very popular and well liked author and seller of restored guns likes to use these terms as if �He� has done any of the work himself. That�s an issue, for me anyways. Fake gunmakers are a plenty. Many of these fakes like to tell potential clients that they possess the requisite skills to pull off a job...and they don�t or simply can�t.....much to the disappointment to the client. A lot of these fakes are usually very well liked and have charming personalities which helps them in their deception.
There are a few good �real� gunmakers out there that provide full in house services with the exception of engraving which 90% of the time is outsourced. And the good ones will be totally up front with their client about outsourced work and the reason for it. My favorite gunmakers last big job for me was making a Lancaster/Beesley mainspring from scratch using nothing more then a jewelers saw and a drill press. No milling machine...he admitted to me that he should�ve sent the job to Stephan Hutton who, with his milling machine would�ve cranked that spring out in literally an hour or less..completely finished. I guess my guy figured the shop pace was slow that month and he wanted to just say he possessed the skills to pull that job off using hand tools. Whatever...the spring works like it should :-).

Ah James, when I first saw your post yesterday evening, only the first paragraph above was there. I thought you were giving me an early Christmas gift by tossing me such an easily refuted softball. I didn't get to immediately reply because I was leaving to go out for dinner, and didn't get in until very late.

I am well aware of the long history of gunmakers using the services of outworkers and employees, and using sub-contractors. I'm pretty sure Uncle Dan Lefever never scratched any of those lovely engraved scrolls or game scenes into my guns. And I'm just as sure he never took credit for it or acted as if he alone was building what came out of his factory.

On the other hand, I simply don't believe that you or most other gunsmithing customers would be happy to seek the services of an established craftsman of high repute, and then come to learn that the work you paid a premium for had been handed off to some unnamed employee or subcontractor. I could just imagine how thrilled you'd be to pay Barry Hands or Winston Churchill to engrave one of your guns, expecting that name and cachet to enhance the value, and then learn that they never touched it, or that a lowly unnamed outworker did all the rose and scroll in order to cut costs, increase his profits, and to permit the great artist the leisure time to spend all day on Doublegunshop bashing Republicans. Or would you?

That would be something like paying a fortune for a Fender Stratocaster that was said to be played by Clapton or Hendrix, and then finding out it was only used by some back-up guitarist. Or finding out that your Rolex that looked great and kept perfect time was a fake.

You say it doesn't matter who does the work, so long as the work meets the contracted standard. Tell that to all of the people, Art Galleries, and Museums that have been duped by fake Picasso's, Gaugin's, and Monet's over the years... work that was good enough to fool all of the experts until pigment or canvas analysis proved the recent forgeries. It may not be a perfect analogy, but I'll stand by everything I said about giving credit and proper attribution to the unsung outworkers these guys use. Don't call yourself a custom gunsmith and use the ACGG seal when you are in fact running a little factory.

I'm not being un-American by criticizing them for hiring employees, and you know it James. I'm criticizing them for acting as if they are something they're not... much like a certain Award Winning Winemaker... who grew a few grapes and sold them to a vintner who actually made, barreled, aged, bottled, and sold the stuff.

And that blather about the "Good advice" of buying the gun, and not the name. What horseshit. Do I really need to remind you of the guns you went to great lengths to buy... specifically because of the name?

But then, earlier this morning, I saw that you had edited your post and added the entire second paragraph. Suddenly, your initial post all made sense to me. Either you are pimping for Stevie, or you have subcontracted your writing to nca225 and rocky mtn bill.

Ahh, Keith, you managed to catch the post in that 4 min window while I was composing the second half. No biggie.

Not pimping for anyone. Just think, with plenty of evidence, you are barking up the wrong tree. Your analogy to Picasso et al holds no water as a comparison. Think more along the whole gunmakers apprentice model.

The difference between you and I is that while our politics are extremely similar, I don't resort to dragging completely unrelated issues into the fray, and in the process attempt to make those unrelated issues relevant. They aren't. You would stay more relevant to your mission if you would do the same.

Edit to add: Additionally Keith, unless you have hacked numerous email accounts, I doubt you are privy to the exact conversations between Steve and his clients. You are simply speculating about what got said and what didn't get said.

Heck, I send guns to CJO for restoration. I don't ask exactly what he does and what he contracts out, although I know he does. What I do know is that when CJO calls me and tells me the gun is ready, every bit of it will have been done to CJO's extremely high standard. And I'm completely good with that.

Stick to uncovering deceptive liberals, not criticizing normal business procedures.