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B. Dudley,

I already own a good #3 gun, and you or anyone else can not tell if Hunter Arms replaced the original stock with this particular stock. If the correct Hunter Arms numbers are on the stock in the correct place, it's a Hunter Arms factory replacement, making the gun a Hunter Arms original. If not the stock was replaced by some else.

Then again maybe you have Superman vision.

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man

"The only successful American Sidelock from the Golden Era of gun making."

When was it determined that Baker was unsuccessful.

It is all about form, fit and finish than anything. Period. IF numbers are present on something like this, it means NOTHING. It isn�t like factory workers are the only ones with number punches.

Now, if it had a bunch of horridly carved oak leaves in the wood, then maybe that could be factory work...

Amateur restock and not a very good one either. Look at the bottom of the stock where it meets the action....just terrible.

The only thing missing is the part where you put the lock plates on a turn table, run them backwards with the needle on 'em and hear the voice of Rudy Kornbrath tell the story of how he engraved the gun for TR.

Trust me. I've got a good feeling about this one!!

Circus barkers and gun dealers are just about equal in hype for their jobs. Look at the gun not the rant of a description. That stock is not factory. The bottom fingers are so thick they took a chisel and beveled them down to the metal. They never sent a field grade out of the factory like that much less a graded gun.

I think there was a typo above, clearly it was meant to say �8k TOO HIGH�

"Some of what you say is true however the #3 guns were all made to order and hand engraved, no production line engraving what so ever, prior to 1913. There were different versions of the engraving available and if requested special engraving was available, by Spangler or Kraus, Hunter Arms Master Engravers.

topgun,
Never say never when it come to L.C. Smith guns, they filled more special orders than any other gun company in history.

Although I have to agree with you, what makes this gun kind of special, is that it happens to be a 20 gauge gun, with special ordered, identical Quail Scene engraving on both sidelocks, seldom produced. It also has been worked on and the Chambers have been opened to 2 3/4, from the original 2 9/16. Although the gun is selling for a premium cost, I would estimate the value of this particular #3 L.C. Smith to be right at $8,200. Which gives the owner some room to come down in cost, if somebody knowledgable wants to make a legitimate offer. I would need to see the stock close up in person, to determine whether it is original or not.

Further if the owner has a letter form the Cody Museum they may have given him an idea of exactly how many 20 Gauge #3 guns were made, they do have an approximate number on record, however the record will not reflect any of the executive guns or railroad guns, that were produced prior to 1913. All documented paper work/sales receipts on these particular guns, was shipped with the gun to the original owners/businesses. No other documentation will exist on those particular guns, and as John Houchins learned some of those guns are seriously nice."

RGD/Dave
L.C. Smith Man


RGD
First of all, I respectfully ask how you were appointed the "L.C. Smith Man"? I'm asking because several other individuals have laid claim that moniker and I surely don't want to confuse you with one of those other individuals.

As to some of your comments above, in my research and in my capacity as a Board member of the LC Smith Collectors Association, I believe I can claim I've seen and studied as many Grade 3 LC's as anyone; and although all Grade 3 guns were considered "special orders" because the Grade 3 was not a standard stock inventory gun, there's nothing special about the engraving on the subject gun. Birds on either lock plate was the standard Grade 3 engraving pattern at one point in the production of the Pre-1913 Grade 3 Smith gun produced after 1900, while at other times during this period the birds were engraved inside an oval; which oval pattern was laid out using a brass template. When placing his order the customer could certainly select the bird species he wanted, so one will observe a certain amount of variety; but always two birds, and very little variation otherwise. Prior to 1900 there was quite a bit of variation in Grade 3 engraving patterns; but the pattern on this gun is the typical, no oval pattern, found on many pre-13 Smith gun produced after 1900. Of the Grade 3 Smith guns I've observed, 98% or more featured Grade 3 standard engraving; and most of the Grade 3 "special" order guns I've seen featured custom stock work (one Grade 3 gun featured custom checkering and ribbon work identical to the much more costly Monogram Grade). To date I've never seen a Grade 3 with special ordered engraving that made that gun really unique; and for what it's worth, my policy as a researcher is to never say never.

As to Cody letters, anyone who is serious about having a meaningful letter on his Smith gun should get that letter from Jim Stubbendieck via the LC Smith Collectors Association. The LCSCA has a complete copy of the original Smith gun shipping ledgers; and once those records were received, Jim devoted hundreds and hundreds of hours researching and compiling the information from every ledger entry. The result is that he can verify the numbers of guns produced in every grade, as well as all gun details that might make a gun of any grade unique; and on post 1919 era Smith guns, Jim can verify all factory options each gun shipped with, as well as ID all unique guns within that grade range. For instance, from Jim's research we now know one 0E Grade 14-bore was produced, and that a special ordered Field Grade was shipped with 34" barrels; neither of which gun is a high grade, but "one-offs" and rare nonetheless. With an LCSCA letter Jim provides one with all relevant and interesting grade details in his response, which information will never be included in a Cody letter.

I see your reference above to "executive guns" and "railroad guns" and John Houchins. I've not heard the term "railroad gun" before but have seen a Smith gun with the name of a rail company engraved on the top rib, so perhaps such a gun as that is your reference? I've heard the term "executive guns" many times, and may have owned an example personally; but thus far we have only unsubstantiated rumor of such guns, although I'll admit such rumored activities by the Hunter Brothers often seems plausible, as I've personally observed many grades entries in the original ledgers that do not correspond with the grade designation on the actual gun. One recent example is the Grade A3 gun (the "Pratt" gun) up for sale in a recent Morphy's auction; which in the original ledgers, is recorded as an A2. Obviously all order forms and sales receipts would have been shipped to the purchaser with the gun, and would have been information too voluminous to retain in a single line shipping ledger entry; but as only the shipping ledgers have survived, rumors must be considered rumors until such time as someone comes forward with actual documentation to prove otherwise.

I honestly don't know you from Adam RGD, but your comment "as John Houchins learned some of those guns are seriously nice", leads me to believe you are referring to the A4 Grade noted in his book. John and I were friends and I assisted him on some parts of his book; and for what it's worth, it was yours truly who located the old Kraus engraving schedule referencing a "Grade A4". I can tell you that an exhaustive search of the original shipping ledgers finds zero reference to any Grade A4 gun; but your comment causes me to wonder if you're the individual who called me years ago about a great grandfather whose six Smith guns were stolen by family members and sold along the way to Utah. If so I vividly recall your account and description of a very special Grade A4 Smith gun having been in that lot, as well as the serial number; and that you had made it your life's mission to recover that family heirloom. If you are that individual, then I sincerely hope you have been successful. Tom Archer

Ok seriously. I am not trying to be rude or silly. I have made many mistakes on �sweet� bastard guns. I have found that what it once was and/ or should have been is irrelevant to the reality of its present condition. I have also found that for the most part few people will venture much past $2000 on medium grade �shooters� with issues.
So is there anyone here that would give $2500 on that one?
I also do my research and the last two respectable 20ga 3E guns I saw were very respectable and in the 6500 asking price range. ( and they didn�t fly off the web at that price. )