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Argo44 Offline OP
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I've been looking for a 16 gauge Saint Etienne shotgun to replace the 1906 Didier-Drevet/Gerest-Berthon I gave to Daughter in Law. This gun has been for sale for awhile and I may be able to get it to the USA. Question is, are the case colors, which are so vivid, real? I've seen four or five examples of French guns from this era with similar colors - the "Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns" had pics of a few.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484199








Manufrance 16 gauge; 7.5 cm chambers (3"); 76cm barrels (30"); 2.7 kilos (6 lbs) ( believe he got his chamber measurements mixed up). Chamber is measured in cm thus between 1889 and 1912; It is after Manufacture des Arms added "Cycles" (1892); it is "only for black powder" so assume it is not safe for PT...pre-1900. I don't know much about shooting black powder guns but it looks pretty robust and wonder if low pressure modern 16 gauge shells could be safely shot from it. (I'd have it checked out if I decide to put in a bid).

https://www.naturabuy.fr/cal-16-75-remis...em-3143203.html

Fusils Juxtaposés calibre 16
Marque : Saint Etienne
Etat de l'objet : d'occasion
Détentes : Double détente
Chambrage : 76 mm
Arme pour droitier ou gaucher : Droitier
Longueur de crosse : 35cm
Poids : 2,700
Longueur de canon : 75 cm
Type de choke : Fixes
Chokage ou chokes fournis : 1/2, 3/4
Epreuve bille d'acier : Non
Garantie : non

très beau fusil pour la collection ou pour la chasse . manufacture armes et cycles st etienne
tir avec uniquement cartouches poudre noire . chambre 75mm .
canon droit 16,6 mm , gauche 16,2 .
légères traces sur bronzage en bout de canons .
canons damas français miroir , fermeture ferme arme en état de tir .

Last edited by Argo44; 06/21/18 12:33 PM.

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Colors look really bright for a gun that old, but possible. Not only is it not PT, but it isn't marked with any of the other powders used for smokeless proof (PJ,PS,PM,PR) before PT became the only one approved.

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From looking at literally hundreds and hundreds of Manufrance guns, in France, over the last 6 years, I would guess no. There appears to be a healthy business in France redoing cyanide colours. I don't think this example is particularly recent (by that I mean in the last year or two) but I sure don't think it's from 1900.


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colors look good...with no evidence of use or fading...if rest of gun is in similar condition, then colors could very well be original...which would be wonderful...also, this is not a high end gun, so consequently one would not usually put money into recoloring receiver, lever and other parts...looks legit to me...but, who really cares... it is a loverly, old well cared for piece in remarkable condition...that is what is really important to me...

clicked on link: advertisement says refurbished...nice job...how much is 650 euros american today?

Last edited by ed good; 06/21/18 01:24 PM.

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Argo44 Offline OP
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Today Euro/$ is 1.16. 650 Euros today is $754. Shipping total would be around $500, possibly less. I likely will hold off. I've got another option. I do like the 7.5 cm chambers and the 30" barrels and even the 6 lb weight for a 16 gauge.

Would it be possible to shoot modern ammo in this gun? I believe it was mentioned that black powder puts a lot more initial pressure on a chamber than modern powders.


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Modern ammo, yes, meaning being made now.
http://www.rstshells.com/

Walmart and other ammo NO.

Special modern ammo like RST is appropriate after
an examination by a vintage side by side smith

I DO NOT believe your 16 gauge chambers are 75mm in length.
http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/3-16-Gauge.aspx

http://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html

Mike

Last edited by skeettx; 06/21/18 03:49 PM.

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Hey Mike...we went through this on the "Dating 20th French Shotgun" line above. The old saw that the French only chambered guns for 6.5 (65mm) until after WWII has been decisively disproven. Here are a few more guns with 7.5 chambers contemporary to the Manufrance above...a dozen more with 7.0 cm chambers from that time period could be posted.

7.5 cm chamber: And this is interesting: An 1890-1912(?) 18.2 guage G.Peyron hammer gun chambered for 7.5 cm. Barrels by Marsot. "Double verrou,levier à volute" à platines "en avant" dont on trouve déjà des modèles dans des catalogues de 1884,mais il doit en exister de plus anciens car le "Levier à volute" existait déja sur des Lefaucheux



Didier Drevet barrel dated 1924; 1924 - 2?871 (or 1?871 ??); gun number 1080 for gun labeled "Excelsior." (per other ads for Excelsior's in the period which are chronologically serial numbered apparently). 10 gauge ( 19.2); chamber: 75mm (chambered in mm)(3"). modèle EXCELSIOR .
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Artisanal-Francais-occasion-Calibre-10-item-2824879.html



1885-1889 Manufance under lever hammer gun; 75mm chambers; 17.4 (14 gauge). Manufance was founded in 1885; the chamber is in mm thus 1889 or earlier.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-3799057.html



Pre 1885. Saint Etienne under lever hammer gun Martinier Collin; 19.6 (8 guage - ad says 10 gauge but I think 10 gauge is 19.2); 80mm chambers; (Martinier and Collin founded the company which was sold in 1885; Their assistants then bought the company which ultimately became Manufrance.);
http://www.naturabuy.fr/rare-fusil-juxtapose-chiens-calibre-10-saint-etienne-item-2376357.html



The ad says it is a Manufrance Ideal Jones underlever hammer gun tested for PP Pyroxillees powder; SN 19416; Cal 10; "80 mm chambers." Barrels are “Ideal” Hercule 3 Palmes demi-bloc. The ad claims that it was only available by special order overseen by the director of the workshop himself and would date from the period 1906-1914. In subsequent queries the seller mentions it was stamped Manufacture d'Armes et Cycles de Saint- Etienne. He blurs some pictures and cuts others off - Barrel flats can't be read, etc). (In fact chambers are 7.5 - see photo)
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Cal-10-Manufacture-Armes-Cycles-Saint-Etienne-item-2206991.html



And my favorite that I regret I missed: 75 mm chambers (pre-1889)....barrel 76cm.
https://www.rouillac.com/fr/lot-233-79107-fusil_chasse_percussion_centrale_chiens?p=9
FUSIL DE CHASSE à percussion centrale, chiens extérieurs, deux coups, calibre 12-75 (18). Canons damas juxtaposés de 76,5 cm de Didier Drevet. Platines gravées " L. Chalet à Saint Etienne ". Crosse en noyer quadrillé, marquée sur une pièce de laiton aux armes couronnées de Poncins.
Dans un étui jambon en cuir " Count de Poncins ".
Fabriqué en 1887.
N°5275 - 1887. Poids : 3,370 Kg.
5è catégorie.
Adjugé : 750 €


Last edited by Argo44; 06/21/18 09:47 PM.

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And I just remembered that I've been saving photos of original French case colors from the turn of the 19-20th Century and agree with Canvasback that these are arsenic redo-s.


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1 inch = 25.4 mm thus;
10 gauge = .775" = 19.69 mm (.775 x 25.4)
8 gauge = .835" = 21.21 mm (.835 x 25.4)
Both rounded to two decimal places.

A few smokeless loads using "Slow" powders loaded light, down to pressure levels which were never intended by their makers, can produce lower chamber pressure than black. These loads will burn "Dirty" & may result in squibs.
When smokeless is loaded as intended it will give higher chamber pressures than Black.

A 16 gauge with three inch chambers is relatively rare, but not unheard of. The vast majority of them are most likely pre-WWI.


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Those are cyanide bath colors. Not charcoal bone as would have been on a gun of that vintage.
Newer stuff, probably post 1950s, possibly much newer.
Best regards,
WC-

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