doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Over/Under Guild Gun (French?) ID & Info. Request

No indication of choke. No requirement for it to be marked on French guns. I'd be very surprised if both barrels are cylinder. Something like that--or even one barrel rifled (not for slugs, but for greater shot dispersion)--is typical of guns made specifically for woodcock hunting. But those guns also usually have very short barrels. 24" or so. But a lot of French guns with longer barrels come with quite a bit of choke--maybe even more than you want.

Shooting RST shells, your fingers should survive. You might even want to try some of their lighter loads if you find the recoil uncomfortable.

areyouawake,
The term "Guild Gun" is a misnomer anyway, what they really are, are guns that were made by name makers for "the trade". In other words, they were sold to be marketed by someone else. Sometimes they were marked with a marketer's name, and often left unmarked.
Mike

Didn't get a chance to pattern the shotgun to estimate what the fixed chokes might be, but I did test fire it and shot a round of trap.

First shots (safety first): https://youtu.be/CD-p9GfVK-g

Seems to shoot really well.

Also got a response from Rivolier:
"Dear Sir,
This shotgun was sold by our firm in the 50.s .
The gun is a French design, made in France, prooftested in the city of Saint-Etienne.
I do not believe we actually made it. Most probably only the barrels and the finishing.
Will try to see if I can found some more info but we have very little of archives from this period."

Not sure what to think of that response, seems a little confusing.

The hunt for more information continues.

Excellent video...Notre Dame??

The 1954 Rivolier catalog entry looks remarkably similar to your gun. Larry and Ted can probably explain the twists and turns of the Saint-Etienne manufacturing hydra at the time - which would be only rivaled by the Birmingham-london intertwining of 1,000's of artisans in the 1800's. I would think the actions probably were contacted for and perhaps finished by Rivolier..as were the barrels...etc. That is the "guild" part of Saint-Etienne.

The only way to get closer to who made what would be to compare initials on various parts of the gun with this list of Cnamber of Commerce firms involved in the gun trade in Saint-Etienne about 1950...which we've posted before but never gets old....and as the compiler admits...is only a fraction of the artisans engaged in the trade at the time (chiffre inf�rieur � celui inscrit � la Chambre des m�tiers).

La liste de la Chambre Syndicale des fabricants d�armes de 1948-1951 compte 105 adh�rents, chiffre inf�rieur � celui inscrit � la Chambre des m�tiers, mais qui permet de trouver les plus repr�sentatifs de la corporation dans cette longue liste class�e par ordre alphab�tique :

Alloni, 12 boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Andr� et Cie, 14 place Tardy ;
Automoto, 38 rue Gutemberg ;
Balp, 3 Cours Victor Hugo ;
Bancel Marcel, 17 rue Louis Blanc ;
Basson, 13 rue du Grand Gonnet ;
Berger Louis, 60 rue Mulati�re ;
B�riola P., 13 rue Louis Blanc ;
Bergeron Louis, 7 rue Desflaches ;
Bertois Fr�res, 40 rue des Armuriers ;
Blanchard-Grange, 67 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Blondeau, 7 place Villeboeuf ;
Bonnard, 34 rue du Mus�e ;
Boucher, 12 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Bouniard et Barri�re, 17 rue de l�Epreuve ;
Boyer A., 62 rue du 11 Novembre ;
Breuil Jean (canonnier), 13 rue Montesquieu ;
Breuil Claude (canonnier), 4 rue du Rozier ;
Brenier & Cie, 68 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Bretton Ren�, 6 Cours Fauriel ;
Canonnerie St�phanoise, 13 rue du Vernay ;
Celle Claude, 5 rue Emile ;
Chambon Fr�res (remplac� par Jean Luquet), 38 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Chanson Jean, 40 rue Badouill�re ;
Chapuis, 11 rue Basse des Rives ;
Charlin, 18 rue B�ranger ;
Chartron, 3 place Desno�tte ;
Chataing & Durand (m�canique), Saint-Bonnet-le - Ch�teau ; Chaussadis, 50 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Chausse Claude, 21 rue Charles Rebour ;
Chausse (jeune) 9 rue Charles Rebou ;
Chavot (canonnier) 34 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Chevillard, 8 rue du 11 Novembre ;
Courtial et Debraye, 14 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Constant Pierre (second� par son fils Jean-Marie, Saint-Maurice en Gourgois (Loire) � qui succ�dera son fils Pierre ;
Damon, 7 rue des Francs-Ma�ons ;
Darne R�gis, 71 Cours Fauriel ;
Darne Francisque, 69 Cours Fauriel ;
Diard, 16 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Donnet et Racodon, 31 rue des Armuriers ;
Douplat Fr�res, 38 rue Badouill�re ;
Dupont, 11 rue Cuvier ;
Emonet, 12 rue Pierre Termier ;
Escot et All�gre, 6 place Villeboeuf ;
Faure Joseph, 19 rue des Armuriers ;
Faure Henri, 10 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Faure Victor, Le Bois d�Avaize ;
Faure Alphonse, 17 rue Claude Delaroa ;
Fayard, 77 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Foussard Lucien, 7 place Villeboeuf ;
Garnier Raymond, 55 rue Claude Delaroa ;
Gaucher Jean, 12 rue Docteur Cordier ;
Gaspard & Cie, 4 Cours Fauriel ;
Gautey, 20 rue Ferdinand ;
Gerster, 61 rue Michelet ;
Giraud Louis, 18 rue Charles Rebou ;
Giraudet, 22 rue de Terrenoire ;
Giraudon, boulevard Poincar� ;
Gonon & Portafaix, 8 rue Villeboeuf ;
Grange, 13 rue des Armuriers ;
Guichard Henri, 66 Cours Fauriel, � qui succ�dera Georges Granger ;
Guichard Maurice & Cie, 20 rue Montferr� ;
Guignand & Pailleux, 76 rue Antoine Durafour ; Guillot, 11 place Villeboeuf ;
Heurtier (canonnier), 28 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Humbert, 52 Cours Fauriel ;
James (canonnier), rue du Cimeti�re ;
Janisson, 28 Cours Fauriel ;
Jay Michel, rue Antoine Durafour ;
Jeay Georges, Le Grand Quartier � Sorbier ;
Jeury Victor, 24 rue Badouill�re ;
Lasherme, 99 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Laspoussas-Driol & Cie (repreneur de Berthon et Didierfusil devient S.I.F.A.R.M.), 8 place Villeboeuf ;
Latcher L�on (repris par Plotton & Barret), 131 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Leyre Pierre, 30 Cours Fauriel ;
Maisonnial Aim�, 13 rue Cl�ment Forissier ;
Manufacture Fran�aise d�Armes et de Cycles, Cours Fauriel ;
Manufacture Nationale d�Armes, 2 rue Javelin Pagnon ;
Marnas, 13 rue du Rozier ;
Marsault, 6 boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Martin-Dubost, 38 rue Badouill�re ;
Mathieu, 25 rue Badouill�re ;
Maumey Jean-Baptiste, 35 rue Mulati�re ;
Meunier, 7 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Montagny A�n�, 48 rue Gambetta ;
Montcoudiol Lucien (M�canique), Saint-Bonnet-le-Ch�teau ;
Odegaard, quartier de Beaulieu ;
Oriol P�re & Fils, 58 boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Oriol (canonnier, 22 rue Rouget de l�Isle ;
Pascal, 7 rue Pierre Blachon ;
Pelletier Yves, 35 rue Mulati�re ;
Peugeot, 46 rue Gutemberg ;
Philippon Marcel P�re & fils (repreneurs d�Autechaud & Bonnavion), 17 rue Pierre Termier ;
Piat, 22 Cours Gustave Nadaud ;
Picard-Fayolle, 42 rue du Vernay ;
Pichon, 31 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
Plotton & Barret, 96 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Picot Fr�res, 10 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Merley & Pouly (canonnier repreneur de Fanget), Andr�zieux ; Mondiale, 2 Cours Fauriel ;
Preynat, 21 rue des Armuriers ;
Ressayre, 8 Boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Rey (successeur de Brun-Latrige), 7 Cours Fauriel ;
Reymond, 40 rue D�sir�-Claude ;
Ribe L�on, 104 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Ribeyre, 60 rue Mulati�re ;
Rivolier P�re & Fils, 21 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
Roullier-Baume, 4 bis rue Badouill�re ;
Roux Louis, 3 rue du Vernay ;
Sabatier, 31 rue du 11 Novembre ;
Sabot Francisque (canonnier), 67 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
Sabot Joann�s, 14 rue des Francs Ma�ons ;
Saillant Prosper, boulevard Valbeno�te ;
Salanon, 21 chemin des Accacias ;
Saunier, 3 rue Jules Vall�s ;
Sauvinet, 31 rue C�sard Bertholon ;
S�lect-Armes (Victor Jourgeon), 103 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Seytre-Montagny, 68 rue Mulati�re ;
Sigaud Fils, 56 Cours Fauriel ;
Soleilhac, 12 rue des Armuriers ;
Soulier, 83 rue Antoine Durafour ;
Staron, 14 rue des Francs-Ma�ons ;
Soci�t� G�n�rale de M�canique, 6 Cours Fauriel ;
Soci�t� Moderne de Fabrications M�caniques (Rouby & Montuclard), 56 rue Tarentaize ;
Thivillier, 4 rue des Armuriers ;
Tissot, 8 rue Tr�filerie ; Tournaire, 4 rue Arago ; Vacher, 2 rue Jean-Baptiste David ;
Vassal (remplac� par G�rard Geffroy), 13 rue Franklin ;
Verdiell, 16 rue de Champagne ;
Verney-Carron, 17 Cours Fauriel ;
V�rot, 36 Cours Fauriel ;
Villebonnet, 61 rue Liogier ;
Zavattero, 24 rue Jean-Claude Tissot.

source: Forissier

Mystery solved!

The contact at Rivolier found a 1933 catalog with the exact shotgun in it.

Der Ami,

What is a 'guild gun'? I was always under the impression is was a gun made by an apprentice as a 'test to display his learning and craftmanship' prior to being accepted into the guild.

Your explanation is new to me.

Raimey, did you notice the SUHL entry in the above catalog?

Tamid,
The majority of unmarked guns are as I described. I cannot state with absolute certainty that none of them are as you describe. The only one I had my hands on that I know for a fact was built for a "Master's Certificate" was built by my German gunsmith friend Walter Grass who got his certificate at Heym, and to whom I refer from time to time. It was marked. To get a "Masters Certificate", in those days, they had to exhibit the requisite skill in two areas. Another friend I speak of from time to time was Helmut Kerner( Emil's grandson) who did his test at Meffert, one of his skills was action filing. To show his skill, he had approval to file a square block of steel to 1 cm thickness, and starting with a small drilled hole, file the hole to a square precisely 1cmx1cm, using only a square, caliper and files. Additionally, he filed a 1cmx1cmx1cm cube that fit into the hole at all orientations, without allowing light through ( his other skill was stock making). From this we know that not all "Masters" built a gun, anyway. Also I tried very hard to buy Walter's, many wears after he built it. He wouldn't think of letting it go, and I'm sure many of the others wouldn't either. Mr. Heym, gave Walter the raw parts for his gun,but I can understand that there might be some cases where the parts might have been acquired, and paid for by selling the gun, but I don't know this. There were a great many made "for the trade", however, and left unmarked.
Mike

Argo44,
Hubertus was the trademark of Meffert Suhl.
Mike

Tamid, the term "guild gun" as we use it in this country is misleading. There are examples of guns being made by apprentices looking to move up in status. But in general, we apply it to any European gun that doesn't carry a maker's name. Most of those guns were, in fact, made by outworkers in the trade, each contributing his own specialty (stocker, actioner, barrel maker, etc) to the project. I remember reading something from someone who worked in the Birmingham trade. One of his first jobs, as an apprentice, was to take the gun from one workshop to another as each task was completed. Eventually, the gun would have arrived at the shop that was going to sell it--where it might well have been finished and had the name of the shop rather than of a true "maker's" name stamped on the gun. So guild, in that case--or the case of the "no name" guns--were "guild" projects in that they were made by a group of independent outworkers who would have been guild members.