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#512011 - 04/21/18 02:12 AM A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle
buckstix Offline
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Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 358
Loc: Whitetail Country
A Rare & Unusual Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Martini Style" Double Tipping Block Action by Miller & Val. Greiss

Hello All,

Although posted on another site, this one is so very, very interesting that I decided to share my excitement about owning it with all the members of this forum. I just acquired this Most Unusual Double Rifle at this past weekend's Rock Island Auction. This is absolutely the strangest, most unique, and favorite, double rifle in my collection. It was made by Miller and Val. Greiss, Munchen, a well known German gun maker known for some very fine and elaborate rifles and shotguns and pistols of the late 1800's. I had never before seen a Martini Style action of this type, with external hammers, let-alone in a "double" Martini configuration with "double" external hammers. However, there was a similar rifle by the same maker, with the same provenance, and the same action, that listed in Rock Island's Dec. 3, 2017 Premiere Auction. It sold for a considerable amount more than this one did, and I very quickly got outbid on that one, an dropped out of the bidding. However, last Sunday, we had a blizzard here in the Central States and I think that cut-down on Rock Island's auction bidders. Lucky for me - because this time I was successful at about "half" the price of what the other one sold for last December.

If anyone knows the owner of that other rifle from December, please have him contact me.

This rifle's weight is 8-1/4 pounds with a LOP of 13-5/8". I'm guessing the short raised dovetail platform was for some type of early pre-WWI scope mounting. I'll be looking for one of those in the up-coming months.

There are no markings on this rifle except as described in the Auction listing. I've tried to shown them below.

Although the auction listed the caliber as 450 Short BPE, It has been difficult finding information about a cartridge with this name. However, after doing a chamber cast, the dimensions were very close to a cartridge that is called the "45 New South Wales." (dies from C-4 are were obtained, and 20 cartridges have been loaded) The chamber cast extended beyond the throat and it also showed that the barrel has 4-groove Henry Henry Rifling. In addition, the bores and chambers are absolutely MINT and Mirror bright. Cases for the 450 Short BPE were formed from 450-400 brass, shortened to 2.5", and opened-up to 45 caliber. The second to last picture shows the 450 Short BPE cartridge along-side a 45/70 cartridge for comparison. The 450 Short BPE case is actually much larger in diameter, and its longer than the 45/70 by about 3/8". The case capacity of the 450 Short BPE is actually 5% more than that of a 45/90 Winchester case.

Note the tiny screw tucked under the cheek-piece. (see picture 9) I removed it, and found it did nothing. It simply pluged-into a very neatly pre-drilled hole. I'm thinking this is some kind of game counter - Germans seem to like to keep track of their harvests?

The only markings: on the bottom of the right barrel are the last 4 digits of the serial number - and a number 7 on the bottom barrel rib. A "Crown V" appears on both barrels. The only place the full serial number appears is on the butt-plate.

As always, comments are welcome.




















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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early"

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#512012 - 04/21/18 02:12 AM A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
buckstix Offline
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Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 358
Loc: Whitetail Country
.... continued







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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early"

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#512053 - 04/21/18 12:50 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
Recoil Rob Offline
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Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 4844
Just too cool! How does the ejection system work? If you only fire one round do both get ejected when opening?
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#512057 - 04/21/18 03:16 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
skeettx Offline
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Registered: 06/03/08
Posts: 4715
Loc: Amarillo, Texas
Wonderful posting
Thank you for sharing
Mike
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#512058 - 04/21/18 03:39 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
keith Offline
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Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 9899
I'd be happy and excited to own a rifle like that too. It has a lot of very interesting features, and is a really nice looking gun. I'd like to know more about the barrels being forged together with the action, as it said in the auction description. Are they trying to say that they were bored from one solid billet, or that two semi-finished barrels were forge welded together, and then the action was machined into the breech area? I can't recall seeing a tang peep that is actually inletted into the tang when folded down. Very cool. I also have not heard of this cartridge. Is the bullet and load data in the lid of the cartridge box what you are using?
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#512068 - 04/21/18 05:33 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: keith]
buckstix Offline
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Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 358
Loc: Whitetail Country
Originally Posted By: Recoil Rob
Just too cool! How does the ejection system work? If you only fire one round do both get ejected when opening?

Hello Recoil Rob,

Thanks for the reply.

This is an extractor system, not ejectors. However, if you "snap" the action open, the empties "pop" completely out of the action.

Originally Posted By: skeettx
Wonderful posting
Thank you for sharing
Mike

Hello skeettx,

Thanks for the reply.

Originally Posted By: keith
I'd be happy and excited to own a rifle like that too. It has a lot of very interesting features, and is a really nice looking gun. I'd like to know more about the barrels being forged together with the action, as it said in the auction description. Are they trying to say that they were bored from one solid billet, or that two semi-finished barrels were forge welded together, and then the action was machined into the breech area? I can't recall seeing a tang peep that is actually inletted into the tang when folded down. Very cool. I also have not heard of this cartridge. Is the bullet and load data in the lid of the cartridge box what you are using?

Hello keith,

Thanks for the reply.

It looks like the right barrel is part of the right half of the action, and the left barrel is part of the left half of the action. The two action halves are joined together and the barrels from the action forward seem to have standard construction with top and bottom ribs attached as usual.

You can see the split-line at the bottom of the action.

The bullets and load data are as shown in the lid.

Well, here is my first test target. I used 2 different aiming points. Dead center hold and 6 o'clock hold. Although this is only the beginning of my load testing, things look very promising. I'll try some heavier bullets next time, to see if they un-cross.





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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early"

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#512194 - 04/23/18 02:28 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
Dennis Daigger Offline
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Registered: 03/16/12
Posts: 216
Loc: Alaska
Buckstix,
Here are pics of the scope mounting system on a Carl Stiegele combination gun that I own and I believe this is what is on your very unique double.







The scope assembly is slide into the base dovetail and as the lever is rotated forward its cam engages the notch in the base, moves the scope assembly forward and tightens it on the tapered dovetail.
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Dennis

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#512200 - 04/23/18 03:01 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: Dennis Daigger]
buckstix Offline
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Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 358
Loc: Whitetail Country
Originally Posted By: Dennis Daigger
Buckstix,
Here are pics of the scope mounting system on a Carl Stiegele combination gun that I own and I believe this is what is on your very unique double.

The scope assembly is slide into the base dovetail and as the lever is rotated forward its cam engages the notch in the base, moves the scope assembly forward and tightens it on the tapered dovetail.

Hello Dennis Daigger,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it is very similar. I think the base on my rifle has a more distinct taper. Now if I can only find a scope and attaching hardware.
_________________________
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early"

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#512288 - 04/24/18 09:44 AM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
Remington40x Offline
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Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 1315
Loc: Warrington, PA
Buckstix:

That's one of the neatest DRs I've ever seen. I've been a Martini fan for years (mostly the small frames - Cadets and BSA .22s, but I own a Swinburn's Patent Martini that's off being restored) and I'd never seen the action used on a DR before.

Quite the clever concept.

I hope you'll take it out and use it to take a deer or an elk.

Rem

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#512328 - 04/24/18 01:44 PM Re: A Very Rare & Unusual Martini Hammer Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
james-l Offline
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Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 1249
Loc: California
The scope base is similar to one on my Miller & Val Greiss O/U combination gun, the locking indent is at the rear and is similar to G&H. This gun has 10/21 proof dates, 12ga over 8x57 and has a 2nd set of 12ga O/U barrels, both are Bohler steel.
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