doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Off Topic- Time to Raise the Legal Driving Age

So then small Stevie, it appears that you are telling us that your earlier assertions that the only information the ATF has on a gun purchase is whether it was a handgun or long gun is wrong.



If, as you say, there is nothing preventing them from photographing your books, then compiling a registry would be pretty simple. We already have the technology to scan handwriting and convert it into searchable digital records. Why would they even want photographs of your books if you weren't doing anything illegal... and I assume you weren't? Apparently, data and ownership of even pre-1968 guns owned by your customers has been removed from your shop in the form of photographs.

So much for the notion that the government could never know who owned the guns sold prior to 1968. I didn't break any big stories... but I think you did.

What exactly is the difference, in your little mind, between removing those Bound Ledger Books from a gun shop to photocopy them, and photographing them inside the shop while the owner stands by and permits it without question or protest? Walter Earl had the courage to stand up and challenge them in Alaska. Did they shut him down for it? And did you bother to call the NRA to see if their legal team thinks any of this is kosher?

I can't really follow along with it, but I noticed at the time I write this, there is a 'meeting' moderated by the President discussing largely 'strengthening' background checks and 'closing loopholes'. I hope that means critical review and understanding, before allowing a potential irreversible shift down a path to giving antis more tools.

Are you really this stupid? Apparently so. The 4473 stays with the FFL holder for 20 years or until he closes. The ATF can audit the books of an FFL holder once every 12 months. That audit includes the books. They can not enter the information from the books into a database which can be searched per Federal law. In my state I do not send anything other than long gun or handgun to them regarding the gun. Pretty simple. As stated before, I treat the ATF agents I have had in my shop with respect and they have returned the respect. I do not challenge them at every turn. Open your own shop and try that crap with them.

Does it really seem to you that Paul Ryan would allow a bill that was a tool for the anti's to pass? I trust him on gun rights. Do you?

I'll play along. I trust him on the topic a whole bunch more than the gal from california that was sitting next to the President. The jury is still out on which side a knee jerk bill will be kinder and gentler to. But, to what I thought was the point, is this alone good enough to be considered a better idea and is it enough to counter the trust of the gal's base that she will use any means to maintain the optics of an image advantage?

It appears that you are the stupid one here Stevie. I know very well that the 4473's stay with the FFL holder for 20 years or until he closes. I even took the time to QUOTE you on that matter.

But if ATF Agents are entering your shop and leaving with photographs of your books, then those records are not just remaining with the FFL holder for 20 years or until he closes. They are now also in the possession of the ATF contrary to what the law was intended to be, and contrary to what you say.

You asserted that when a we buy a gun, they have no idea what it is other than if it is a handgun or long gun. That simply isn't true in your case, unless an agent doing an inspection could memorize all of your records without taking any photographs.

You might as well say that it would be perfectly OK for them to take those records and photocopy them. A copy is a copy is a copy. And a photograph is every bit as useful as the original form or Ledger Book.

In my opinion, that is pretty much what you are telling us.

And if anyone seriously thinks that the anti-gunners would be satisfied if we gave up AR-15's, large cap magazines, and permitted Universal Background Checks, think again...

You are truly clueless. Please show me where the law stops the ATF from taking photos of the bound books. It does not. They have regulatory authority and the right to document an audit how they see fit. The law does prohibit them from putting that information in a searchable database.

Are you gentleman enough to cut me a percentage of your royalties once your big story breaks? I would be happy with a mere 10%.

Guess you won't mind me calling you Deepthroat now.

OK Stevie, if they have the regulatory authority to conduct an audit any way they see fit, how could the Alaska gun shop owner have successfully prevented them from removing his books to make photocopies?

Are you telling us that after he prevailed against their unreasonable and illegal request, that they could have simply returned and accomplished the very same thing by taking photographs? Are you really that dumb and agenda driven?

Pray tell Stevie, what is the difference between a photocopy of records that are supposed to remain solely in your possession for 20 years, or until you retire, and a photograph of those same records? With the present technology available to scan a photograph of handwriting and convert it to a searchable digital format, would you concede that the potential for misuse of those records you permitted to leave your premises exists?

By the way Stevie, the type of inspection you permitted is prohibited under Federal law. The prohibition is in 18 USC 923(g)(1)(D) which specifically prohibits anyone in the Justice Department from �seiz[ing] any records or other documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. You weren't in violation of the law, were you?

I'd like to thank the FFL who provided this link to me. He obviously knows a lot more than small Stevie:

https://www.gunowners.org/news02042013c.htm

I thought recent months have shown notes, pictures, audio recordings, phone and texts, etc. generated by a gov. worker while on duty or related to their duty are the property of the US gov. Regardless of what actually happens or is supposed to happen to the forms or books, isn't it amazing how quickly thirty or fifty thousand 'lost' emails can be scanned for classified material? Some folks seem to get a lot of mileage out of incidentally collected info.

Deepthroat.....yes potential for abuse exists. Write the story and become a rich lady. I want my cut though....all jokes aside.

That fact you can not understand the difference between the bound books staying at the shop or leaving says just how dumb you are. Yes they could have photographed them but they chose to try to take them and he objected. When they come in, the ask for your books and you hand them to the agent. You do not at that point tell the agent what he can and can not do with them. Mr. Earle has a great deal more wealth than myself and I'm sure he just called his lawyer when the agents walked in. Audits take hours if not days. I'm sure he had legal representation on sight. I do not have the budget for that, I just show them respect and we get on with the audit.

How very brave of you to tell someone else who actually risks their lively hood in the gun business that they should handle an audit differently. I suggest you go through a few and make some comments backed up with real world knowledge.