doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Off Topic- Time to Raise the Legal Driving Age

Bolding of type in second sentence in the statement above was added by me.

On this, I totally agree. It sure as hell isn't the NRA, or the Firearms Industry, or law abiding gun owners who are responsible for providing "inadequate evaluation and inappropriate treatment" for mental illness, PTSD, or ADHD.

And yes, depression and suicide is nothing new. Nor is PTSD, Shell Shock, Battle Fatigue, or Soldier's Heart. These combat related psychological disorders have probably existed as long as men have experienced the horrors of war. Same goes for ADHD which used to be called Hyperactivity. What is new is the way these illnesses or disorders are treated.

When the so-called cure or treatment has an unacceptably high incidence of side-effects that are often more severe than the underlying illness... and when the tragic consequences result in blame being completely misdirected toward totally innocent law abiding citizens, it is prudent and proper to debate the issue. It is also a time to demand appropriate responses rather than simplistic knee-jerk reactions that will not solve the problem, and also diminish our rights and freedoms.

It is also time to remind our elected representative that we still will not accept any infringements on our Constitutional 2nd Amendment Rights.

Keith, I found your stats on teen deaths and corollary measures with respect to gun control a valid point worth discussion. Two things came to mind, both employed in the arena of ideas: to wit, emotion/vocal violence, and consistency. With the former, I am reminded of the old saying among some in the legal profession: when you have the law, argue the law; when you have the facts, argue the facts. When you have neither, pound the table.

As to the latter, I consider consistency crucial, and it is so often ignored by those on "the other side." A few quotes that are among my faves:

�A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." - Emerson

�Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead.� - Huxley

�Consistency is the hallmark of the unimaginative.� - Oscar Wilde

Thank you for your thoughts,

Mike

Scholarly debate requires some scholarship Keith. And suicide would be a fairly severe consequence of untreated depression or PTSD; witness the crisis among veterans today.
Are you proposing government mandated SSRI control? Or would you leave the choice of therapy up to well informed patients and adequately trained health care professionals?
Yes; I had some patients tell me "for the first time in my life I feel normal" after starting a SSRI, and others "for the first time in my life I felt like hurting myself".
I get it, as does anyone else paying attention, or who cares enough to do so.
And please spare us the (true) VA psychiatric horror stories; I live in Phoenix, home of the "waiting list until they die first" and I get that too. And it is a national disgrace.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/10/...port-finds.html

I still think it's important to distinguish between a prescription medicine and treatment. One is an inanimate object, the other is subjective. It can be argued that the subjectivity of medical treatment is represented by a large anti second national organization. I think if we successfully blame an inanimate object, then it's logical to blame other inanimate objects. Maybe, adequate diagnosis and appropriate treatment should include assessing results and non use of inappropriate therapies. An adverse reaction is like blood in the water for legal types. That's at least one check-n-balance that can be highly motivated.

any federal involvement with the civilian possession of firearms that infringes on their rights is a direct violation of the second amendment, which clearly forbids federal involvement with firearms that would infringe in the right of the people to keep and bear arms...

however, the second amendment also clearly reserves to the states, the power to regulate civilian possession of firearms, in order to provide for a well regulated militia, which is necessary to the security of a free state...

so, it is really up to the states to solve the public shooting
problem, be it in a school, sports arena, concert venue or where ever there is a public gathering...and the solutions practiced by various states is as diverse as our society...for example, what works for new york state, may not necessaraily apply to georgia, etc...

Two points:1)The idea that schools are targeted because they are "gun-free zones" is simply wrong. They are targeted because they represent to deranged shooters the center of their sense of failure and humiliation.2) The cost of training and arming teachers would be much better invested in school's counseling services so that potential shooters can be better identified and treated before they do something irrevocable.

Bill,
Bullshit. If that were the case, there would never have been anything but school shootings, and mass shootings, predictably, happen where people on site can not respond in kind. Like, a movie theatre, with a "No Guns Allowed" sign, in Aurora Colarado.

Since so many of the perps of these events have multiple run-ins with the law, why don't they take their humiliation and failure out on police stations?

I'll remind everyone that 40 years ago, Israel had a similar problem, for different reasons, but, similar, none the less. They answered the problem. One need only look at the issue of the so called "dreamers" to see that the left in this country is not interested in solving any problem that can be used to curry favor with voters. And school shootings fall into that group of problems that are far too valuable to them to solve before an election.

How else can one explain the "NO GUNS" signs that went up on so many schools across the nation, but, never appeared on any school administrators home?

I have maintained all along that the signs on the schools were a calculated, understood, and executed evil ploy used by the left to advance a particular agenda.
An agenda they had no prayer of advancing in any other fashion.

The end always justifies the means.


Ted

I wasn't supporting any partisan agenda, something I'm fully capable of when I choose. I worked in public education from 1962 to 1999. I know something about the problems students and schools confront. Almost no one goes into education as a profession with the notion that they must kill one student in order to prevent him from killing another. Those willing to do that go into law enforcement, a fully honorable profession but not interchangeable with teaching. I knew several cops who became teachers. I never knew a teacher who became a cop.

PS: They do sometimes take their frustrations out on police. But most school shooters have had no police contact. They're too young to have reached that stage. What they do have is a history of friction with school. They hate teachers or they hate other students for reasons that only make sense to them.

BIll,
Perfect. Give me an example of a police station that was targeted in a mass shooting.

Here was one just for you:

http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/dc-native-leaves-job-as-teacher-to-become-police-officer

Teachers can and do become cops, Bill.

More important to the discussion than what set of skills are interchangable, is where an individual falls on the "wolves, sheep, or sheepdogs" profile. Kids can be wolves, as can, unfortunately, teachers, or cops. But, everyone falls somewhere in that set, including the cop who was suspended and later resigned at Parkland. He was a sheep.
I will never believe that all people employed in a profession fall into a single group. There are teachers who would make very capable sheepdogs, Bill. Not likely you, since you have already made the argument that it isn't possible for a teacher, but, I have known a few that I would trust my life with.
I care not in the least about "treatment" of an individual who can or would take arms up against innocents. Much like the Israelis, I want the potential target hardened, and clear thinking about protection and survival of the potential victims to be the main consideration. The bad guy can go to hell, or, to go meet his virgins. I don't care if he is 14, or 40. Nobody can save you when you are at the point of shooting up a school.
Nipping a problem in the bud only works when it is a bud, not a full bloom problem.
The bad actors on the left made a point of making sure schools were very clearly unarmed and helpless until help arrived, and that that fact was broadcast and recognized.

None of this was unpredictable.

Ted