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I have W.C. Green patent number 2716 of Sept. 3 1868. The British Shotgun, Volume One 1850 to 1870 by I. M. Crudgington and D.J. Baker. page 223. it states that,

"The hammerless gun he designed was cocked and opened by a push forward under lever, which also was the trigger guard. In both actions the lockwork is built on the trigger plate."





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This statement aroused my curiosity regarding the price of a Dickson vs other markers:

"...a Dickson Round Action was a premium luxury item."

In 1935, a single Dickson Patent Round Action cost 120. This is according to the Dickson catalog reprinted in Dallas's book.

1938, Abercrombie & Fitch quoted the following prices (all F.O.B. London):

-Boss Hammerless Ejector Over Under: 157-10-0
-H&H Model de Luxe: 157-10-0
-Purdey Hammerless Ejector "Featherweight" 12 gauge: 136-10-0
-Woodward Best Quality Double Barrel Gun: 126-0-0
-Churchill Premier Quality Doube Barrel: 120-0-0

OWD


Good Gun Alerts & more:

www.DogsandDoubles.com
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"When Lord So-and-So wanted a round action built as light in weight as possible, that's what Lord So-and-So got."

This echoes a common misconception about best guns, that they were made for wealthy titled people. The makers' ledgers disprove this notion. The plain Mr's and mid level armed forces ranks far outnumber the nobility. Best guns were affordable back then.

The price list posted above by OWD gives a key. At the time those prices applied a navy captain earned nearly 500 pounds annually, or four times the price of a best. The price of a mid level boxlock was about a quarter of the price of a best sidelock or RA.

There was no collecting or gun hoarding in those days.

A new best today starts at a staggering 38000 unengraved (D. MacKay Brown RA). Interesting that the Royal Navy Captains salary today does not cover a finished best gun, even though modern technology has lowered production costs. Today the price of a mid level boxlock is a stunning 1/50th of a best gun.

Something went wrong somewhere along the line. Personally I see gun hoarding as the main cause.

Last edited by Shotgunlover; 01/07/18 06:02 PM.
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One may need to consider the factor of the price of running a business in London versus Edinburgh, too.
Don't forget, officers' commissions in The British military were purchased (and they weren't cheap). Money would get you up the chain of command much faster than ability.

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Originally Posted By: Shotgunlover


This echoes a common misconception about best guns, that they were made for wealthy titled people. The makers' ledgers disprove this notion. The plain Mr's and mid level armed forces ranks far outnumber the nobility. Best guns were affordable back then.


I think you misunderstand British society at that time (early 20th Century). Titled people at that time were suffering a decline in wealth. For many, much of their wealth had come from overseas interests in the so called 'British Empire' - sugar, tea, rubber, guano, cotton, tobacco etc. This had much declined as the 'Empire' had shrunk. At home money had mainly come from either agricultural (much of that in rents) and some from industry, but the industrialists were often 'new' money and not titled. After WW1 this became even more so with agriculture in depression and many former 'Empire' areas of the world being more independent, if not yet totally independent (much of that came after WW2).
There were many, many business people (law, industry, shipping, 'city' (like stockbrokers and banking families) who were wealthy, but not titled. They would often have bought from the 'best' makers, but would appear in the gunmakers books as plain Mr. xxx.
I have read that certain makers tended to have a following amongst certain 'communities' the example springing to mind being Henry Atkin, who seemed to have a larger than usual following from banking families. I have also hear it said that Cogswell and Harrison were popular with the military.
Remember also that in the UK (until the late 20th century) many people who served in the military as officers came from wealthy families and it was common practice to retain the title of the military rank on retirement. Where I live, my fathers generation had several Colonels and Majors (Army) and Admirals, Commanders and Captains (Royal Navy) who had long been out of the armed forces, but retained their title in either retirement, or their civilian lives.

Your comment of prices against income is also very relevant. In real terms, motor vehicles, cameras/photography, radio/television most domestic appliances (washing, dishwashing, cleaning, refrigeration) have decreased markedly in real terms - whereas (in the UK anyway) houses/property, professional services (legal, medical and financial) have increased. 'Best' guns fall firmly into the increased category. Guns overall (mainly imports) much more holding line with incomes.

Last edited by JohnfromUK; 01/08/18 04:24 AM.
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I could never force myself to purchase a new best gun with earned money. Maybe lottery money or inherited money, if I had any...Geo

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If I made that kind of money I would have. Take it to South America every year, to Africa, maybe up to Canada and Alaska, to Eastern Europe and it would have the scratches and dings to prove it.

It would be great to open a worn trunk case and pull out a beater Thomas Boss or James Purdey or a John Dickson.

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I could never force myself to purchase a new best gun with earned money. Maybe lottery money or inherited money, if I had any...Geo

I could never afford a 'best' English new; However I did buy a Beretta SO new - 20 years ago - and that has walked miles with me and shows a fair number of 'use' scars.

I did try to buy (at auction) a 'bar in wood' Dickson round action. These are quite simply the best looking guns I have ever seen - and this example was fully cased with decent original Damascus in nitro proof. It went for considerably more than I could afford (and much more than I paid for my SO new).

IF I had been able to afford a best gun new, I think it would have been a Purdey or Henry Atkin (I like Beesley's patent action), with house extra fine rose and scroll. And most likely I would have bought a used example anyway as I'm mean with money!

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Originally Posted By: Mike Rowe
One may need to consider the factor of the price of running a business in London versus Edinburgh, too.
Don't forget, officers' commissions in The British military were purchased (and they weren't cheap). Money would get you up the chain of command much faster than ability.


Mike, I am afraid your commission purchase remark is dated at best, to dead wrong. The Cardwell Reforms abolished the purchase of commissions in 1871 or so. The Dickson Round Action falls after that.

Your generalities are just too generic.

The British Army has long had a professional officer corps. The Royal Navy set an early positive standard amongst major countries by adopting a system of training and testing officers academically and hands on in order to advance in rank. I think more than 100 years ahead of the Army.


Michael Dittamo
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Yes, Michael, I have read about the Cardwell Reforms. But, I believe, things were quite slow to change within the British Army, and perhaps did not really gain real momentum until the Great War decimated the officer corps.
This is a very interesting discussion perhaps sometime.

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