doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 21 Skeet -- Only two bidders above $3,300

I have a 12 gauge tournament skeet that I would sell for less than that. Bobby

Tells you a lot though about the American double gun market where a NID can't fetch $1,500.00 dollars while this Winchester comes in at over $4,500.00 with 16 bids.

Aren't these two guns about equal in quality? Equal in ruggedness?

There was a reported test (Winchester advertisement) comparing American guns and the M21 reportedly utlasted the NID and others by a considerable shot count. The guns shot heavy loads, exceeding recommended pressures, until they could no longer shoot.
According to Researcher:
"in the famous Winchester Model 21 Proof Test, the NID failed after 56 proof loads, the Fox-Sterlingworth after 80. Of course the point was the overdesigned Model 21 digested 2000 proof loads and was just fine."
The rest of the story (the M21's stock broke after 15 rounds):
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...e6172d7d6ab57c4

I don't quote that test anymore because it ain't quite right. No mention of what happened to the LC Smith and the Parker model tested was the model without the doll's head rib extension. Why was that?

"The M21 stock failed after 15 rounds but they kept shooting proof loads for 2000 rounds. Tell me, why does it matter that it went 2000 rounds if the stock failed after 15. In the write-up I have (Stadt, 1995) it says: "L.C. Smith: no data available. It is known that after testing, the L.C. Smith was unserviceable and unsafe" (Wonder if that means the stock cracked? They were very clear about what failed on the other models. Note that they kept shooting the 21 after its stock broke, rendering IT unserviceable and unsafe!) "Fox: daylight visible at face of breech after six rounds; draw in bolt gone after 50 rounds; gun started to blow open after 60 rounds; testing discontinued after 80."
"Ithaca: daylight visible at face of breech after three rounds; draw in bolt gone and buttstock cracked after 10 rounds; action seized and testing discontinued after 56 rounds."
"Parker: daylight visible at face of breech after 10 rounds; left side of frame cracking after 26 rounds; forearm wood split at 275 rounds; buttstock split at 300 rounds; daylight at breech too great for firing after 305."

I should think that the L.C. failure would have been noted if it were metal or action related. That's why I suspect it was the stock. Note that the M21 stock failed before some of the others. This test was pure marketing malarky."

I tend to agree. Again, why wasn't the LC Smith only described in general terms, "rendered unserviceable and unsafe' where all the others were accurately described. Did the LC Smith perform better? Lasted just as long or possibly longer?

The Parker model with its complete lock up was left out. Why?

beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
people buy guns backwards.
they look at the price tag and then try to justify its worth.
if you like it and it fits and its solid...price tag comes last.

Yes, early field grade Model 21s and field grade NID made around that time were basically equal later Winchesters had more fancy wood. I think typical field grade NID is better quality than a Strelingworth yet Sterlingworth will sell for more. What always surprised me is one can get nice English Fowling pice or Pigeon gun from Brimingham for same or less than Model 21 and they will still pick Model 21. I do not understand.

Name brand means a lot with certain buyers. Winchester, Browning and Parker have a devoted group of buyers. Fox, Smiths and Ithaca graded guns generate a decent amour of interest. But field grade guns in Fox, Smith and Ithaca do not generate much interest above utility shooter grade use. Nobody has an extensive collection of Sterlingworths or Smith or Ithaca based solely on high condition any more than there is a high condition collection of Ramblers or Dodge Darts.

This 21 is a mixed bag to me. Too heavy to carry for a long on upland hunting with the chokes it has. Neither light weight nor choked tightly for long second shots. It's just a play thing unless you are in love with 21's.

It is easier to sell even a worn example of a Parker or Winchester 21 than a likewise example of a Fox, Smith or NID. I bought two NID 12's for less than 750.00 total for the pair. After a gentle clean up I sold them for just under a grand for the pair. Decent return but the demand for shooter NID has a ceiling fan of 450-500. If they were 21's I'd get less percentage of return but would make a higher dollar return in total. Just what the market is these days.

Of course you do not understand!

Once again, the guy who has the least experience with double guns has the most to say. You don't even own any doubles Jagermeister. None. Not even a JABC table lamp. Even if Model 21 prices in general fell by 50%, you still wouldn't be able to afford one.

You should stick to what you really know... toy stuffed animals.

The usual sidetracking.

It's a 21, not a NID, Parker, Fox or anything else.

Condition no great shakes, lotta carry wear, below average wood (for a 21).

A configuration that will attract less interest than a PG stock in THIS model gun.

$4,500 is way on the high side, IMHO.

Hopefully the gun found a happy new owner.

Yea Jonesy but it sold and for quite a bit more than Bushmaster's NID in equally good shape.