doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns

Gene,, I have the book and will scan it for you. Although I won't be home until Tuesday.

Much as I think highly of French guns, my French Collection currently consists of just an Ideal and a Parisian sidelock. So not much help in the piecing together of the St Etienne history.

Merci CB..... It would be an excellent post for this line. Shoot well.

I wish.

No seasons open yet up here. So I'm whiling the weekend away at the cottage on Georgian Bay. Bossing the kids around.

Here's a list James sent me some time ago regarding the Ideal. I'll scan Mournetas Robust models and dates of mfg in a day or so. I will also scan the model numbers and dates mfg. for the Ideal models and dates:

Gil, my understanding is that is a list of dates for barrel production, not necessarily completed gun production.

James, I've got Mournetas's books for the Ideal and Robust. I'll scan the tables for each and post if someone doesn't beat me to it. That'll give date ranges by model numbers for each shotgun. Gil

Amazing. Ask a question and guys start pulling stuff out from under their beds. It's so difficult to date Saint Etienne guns.....except maybe it won't be that difficult anymore. Simply amazing.

Edit, while here, I want to repost the Darne SN chart previous forwarded. Ted warns that there are some demonstrable inaccuracies but it is a reference tool:

Lol Gene.

I hadn't contributed to this thread before because I was kinda putting Manufrance production aside from the smaller workshop output. Always happy to spill what I know....I just assume others already know what I know. Have learned so much here but still think of myself as a beginner.

Argo, not to be a pessimist . . . but the real issue, on top of a whole bunch of small St. Etienne shops, is the fact that the French never used a date code. In contrast to the Germans, Italians, Spanish, etc. Nor are there quite as many handy clues as there are on British guns, thanks to the number of times they changed their rules of proof. Even a big company like Verney-Carron can't give dates on pre-WWII guns. When I inquired about one I owned years ago, they were very helpful: pages from their catalog pinning down the model and grade, and providing the year in which those guns were first offered. But no serial number list or anything like that.

Nevertheless, a whole lot of very useful information is being turned up. Bravo!

Gil has scanned his book on Manufrance and forwarded the following Serial number list for the Ideal and Robust. Here are the tables for the IDEAL. I'll translate the first half of the first page per below:

Dating of the �IDEAL by Registration Number

Currently, three lists are circulating concerning the dating of the IDEAL by their numbers. One at least is complete fantasy, having been established by suppositions about what has been written badly interpreted. Another of a more serious origin seems to have been established according to the production of the barrels. This has nothing to do with the finished arms delivered for sale each year.

On this topic we have an official document furnished by the head office of the manufacturer on page 45 of the 1898 catalogue. Here below is the total production of the IDEAL shotguns for the first 10 years (11,732 shotguns produce in total):

1887: 630
1888: 1,152
1889: 1,925
1890: 2,713
1891: 3,724
1892: 4,683
1993: 5,761
1894: 6,995
1895: 8,107
1896: 10,239
1897: 11,732

These numbers corroborate those in the document given by the official source that we are publishing below.

(Note, these posts have come out quite fuzzy - probably because of the host photo resolution. I will work to get better copies and/or will type it out manually as time permits.) (edit: I'll post the page on the numbers produced and serial numbers up to 1945 hand typed below. But frankly there are some almost indecipherable - to me at this point - additional pages that I don't understand unless I get concrete examples):

Year�..Production��.Serial Number
1887 . . . 630 . . . . . . . 001 to 630
1888 . . . 522 . . . . . . . 631 to 1152
1889 . . . 783 . . . . . . 1153 to 1935
1890 . . . 778 . . . . . . 1936 to 2713
1891 . . .1011 . . . . . . 2715 to 3724
1892 . . . 959 . . . . . . 3725 to 4683
1893 . . .1078 . . . . . . 4684 to 5761
1894 . . .1234 . . . . . . 5762 to 6995
1895 . . .1112 . . . . . . 6996 to 8107
1896 . . .2132 . . . . . . 8106 to 10239
1897 . . .1493 . . . . . .10240 to 11732
1898 . . .1509 . . . . . .11733 to 13241
1899 . . . 814 . . . . . .13242 to 15055
1900 . . .2008 . . . . . .15056 to 17083
1901 . . .2014 . . . . . .17084 to 19077
1902 . . .1637 . . . . . .19078 to 20714
1903 . . .1489 . . . . . .20715 to 22203
1904 . . .1489 . . . . . .22204 to 23692
1905 . . .1798 . . . . . .23692 to 25490
1906 . . .1913 . . . . . .25491 to 27403
1907 . . .2040 . . . . . .27404 to 29443
1908 . . .2094 . . . . . .29444 to 31537
1909 . . .2014 . . . . . .31538 to 33551
1910 . . .1875 . . . . . .33552 to 35426
1911 . . .1742 . . . . . .35427 to 37168
1912 . . .1700 . . . . . .37169 to 38868
1913 . . .1000 . . . . . .38869 to 39868
1914 . . . 717 . . . . . .39869 to 40595
1915/1918�0
1919 . . . 506 . . . . . .40596 to 41091
1920 . . .1282 . . . . . .41092 to 42372
1921 . . .1306 . . . . . .42373 to 43680
1922 . . .2191 . . . . . .43681 to 45871
1923 . . . 655 . . . . . .45872 to 48526
1924 . . .2561 . . . . . .48527 to 51087
1925 . . .2809 . . . . . .51088 to 53896
1926 . . .2861 . . . . . .53897 to 56757
1927 . . .2819 . . . . . .56758 to 59576
1928 . . .2884 . . . . . .59577 to 62460
1929 . . .1367 . . . . . .62461 to 63827
1930 . . .1816 . . . . . .63828 to 65643
1931 . . .1624 . . . . . .65644 to 67267
1932 . . .3894 . . . . . .67268 to 71162
1933 . . .1538 . . . . . .71163 to 72700
1934 . . .1000 . . . . . .72701 to 73700
1935 . . . 101 . . . . . . 72701 to 72801
1936 . . . 496 . . . . . . 73802 to 74209
1937 . . .1990 . . . . . .74210 to 76199
1938 . . .1859 . . . . . .76200 to 78058
1939 . . . 368 . . . . . .78059 to 78426
1940/1945. 0


The preliminary dating of an Ideal in an above post SN 19416 (page 5,6) can now be checked. It was initially identified as pre 1900 based on chambers in CM, proofed for PP, etc. Ted commented that it was actually proofed for PT, so the date was moved to post 1900 possibly 1901. Per the above chart 19416 would have been made in 1902. The seller claimed 1906-1914.