doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Dating early 20th Century French Shotguns

before the "T" powder there were the S, J and M, with the corresponding proof marks.
I have a Pirlet boxlock with all three stamps PS, PJ and PM.
The "S powder was deemed the hardest to pass and was used by la manu long after T was introduced.
The "R" only applies to Ideal model # as in "No 3R".
The poster is correct in that it was supposed to be used in conjunction with Nitro proof relative to BP proof. It stands for "renforce" e.g. reinforced.
Of course, this went away in the 20s, when nitro was the standard.

I think Kennett's reference to R powder likely comes from Baron Engelhardt, whose work he was basically updating. Engelhardt's original article shows the PM proofmark and says: "For barrels proved with smokeless R and M powders, adopted May 14, 1898. But it does not show a PR proofmark. He also shows only the PJ proofmark when referring to both J and S powders, which were adopted together on March 30, 1896. Looks like something slipped in the editorial process. Kennett's later article does show a PR proofmark.

there is no R powder!

Took a look in General Journee's "Tir des Fusils de Chasse". He doesn't list R, so it appears that Engelhardt was in error, and Kennett simply copied his mistake. Interestingly, Journee provides a chart which shows 4 different varieties of PJ. Only one each for the others (S, M, T).

Powder R? That is a new one on me.

Again, the only time I have seen the letter R on the flat of a French gun, is under a trident, in reference to reproof. The trident was at St. Etienne, and if under a crown, it was reproof at Paris.


Best,
Ted

We got the "no R" thing, Ted. But interesting in going back to Journee--which I don't do as often as I should--I found that there are 4 different varieties of J. In addition to just plain old J (or J-0--I can't do the sub-numbers), there are also J1, 2, and 3. According to Journee's chart, while they all have the same % of nitrocellulose, they differ in the number of grains per gram. T has the highest % of nitrocellulose: 98%, compared to 83% for the J's, 71% for M, and 65% for S.

"Were" four varities, Larry. Further, I'm going to suggest if the differences between them had been critical, it would have turned up in the proof marks.
It didn't. Proof with powder J is proof with powder J.
This seems to be one of those things that didn't matter for very long, and didn't matter all that much when it did matter.


Best,
Ted

Well I'm still curious about what Geoffrey Gournat is saying on this site referencing the manufrance Ideal:
http://www.gournetusa.com/ideal.htm

"The two lugs appear under the action and the model is stamped on the rear one.... Here a "No 3R"...The letter R means that the barrels are compatible with smokeless powder and appeared in 1897. No 3R appeared in 1898."

The photos in the article show none of this. So is the "R" the author refers on the lug? Is it only relevant to Manufrance Ideals as Wildcattle said or does it apply to other Manufrance guns? The number in front of the "R" looks to be equivalent to the Ideal model number as Ted mentions but what about that "R"? It's odd that there is a definitive statement made about an "R" but no photo and no-one here has heard of it or seen it.

And finally French blogs are full of knowledgeable posters dating early Ideals and Robusts based on Serial Numbers. It looks like Manufrance records of their SN's are intact and known. Is this true?

Gene,
It might be. The Manufrance building remains on Rue de la Convention, in St. Etienne, with the chamber of commerce building next to it, and the Darne works across the side street. The old Manufrance building stretches for more than a few blocks, and is enormous.
But, it has been divided up into retail space and shops. It had been out of business for some time when I was there, and I didn't seek out information on those guns.

Geoffroy speaks English as a third language, behind French and Waloon, and I have a bit of trouble communicating with him, and noticed much the same on his website. If you speak French as well as you write it, you could ask him yourself. He responds to email pretty much daily, in my experience.
If the folks on your French blogs are based in St. Etienne, they may well have been employed in the gun trade, or, moonlighted in it, and would have a depth of knowledge we here could never approach. At one time, a big percentage of the population in that town made their living, or part of it, in the gun trade.
As I have pointed out, Manufrance guns were not something I was, or, am, interested in. I'm sure they are superb guns. A friend owns an Ideal, a Costo and a Robust, nobody can hit anything with the Ideal, and the other two have been rode hard and put up wet, in addition to being hard to hit anything with. All three have pretty significant pitting in the barrels, not uncommon on old French guns, but, I've moved on from my pitted barrels phase. I was distracted enough with the Darnes, I guess.
Good luck.

Best,
Ted

Ted, my in-laws are down in St, Chamond. Their company has made parts for French Aerospace enterprises for 60 years. They're not In St. Etienne proper but are interconnected with the tech community there. We'll see what we can come up with. All of them talk about "La Manu"...Socialist France of the 1930's.

As for pitting in pre WWII French guns, a lot of those guns were buried during the occupation.

Of all the French bloggers..."Neltir" seems to be the best. He is irascible and grumpy but shares his knowledge.

French and Walloon are identical with a few idioms...now if you mention "Flemand"..that's another story.

Ted, there are dozens of identifying markers for early 20th century French guns..This line has been a great education for me...and I will compile what we come up with.