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Argo44 Offline OP
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Thanks Ted...wasn't sure what "Pyroxillees" meant (smokeless?) and couldn't see the proof mark. So "PT"...post 1900 because of the powder; pre 1912 because of the chamber in cm. Pretty close to what the seller was advertising.

Edit, ran across this site on the manufrance Ideal:
http://www.gournetusa.com/ideal.htm

It dates an Ideal SN 21934 to 1903 and states that Manufrance was making 1500-2000 Ideal's a year. That would date the test gun above, SN 19416 to circa 1901, shortly after PT was introduced in St. Etienne.

The barrels came in different grades of Damascus or steel, stamped for the last one "ACIER HERCULE" followed by one to five pair of branches or palm determining the quality. If the Damascus were assembled with copper, the new steel was assembled with tin to keep lower temperature. Chopper lump, the technique used to assemble the locking lugs (dovetailed), are an integral part of the barrels. Chopper lump construction is believed to be stronger. The two lugs appear under the action and the model is stamped on the rear one. Here a "No 3R". The lowest grade is No 0. In 1187 were offered models 0 to 8. The letter R means that the barrels are compatible with smokeless powder and appeared in 1897. No 3R appeared in 1898. The barrels are stamped PS with a crown, a Saint-Etienne standard smokeless proof starting in 1901. There is on the barrels flat some indication of loading at proof and at regular use. Those barrels should have been proofed at 12,090 psi. The caliber available went from gauge 8,10,12,14,16,20,24,12mm and express caliber 500,450.375.303 british,405WCF,german 8x57, 600 Winchester and of course the 8 mm Label. The gun we have here is a 12 gauge chambered in 65 mm (very closed to 2 and half inch. Longer chambers, a 70 mm, were only available on a pigeon gun named "Perfection". It is a hercule steel 2 palms bored at 18.4 mm, 65 cm or 2 1/2 half inches. The rib is hollow, a typical feature of the Hexagone, they call it "canon plume" or feather barrel, and it weight XXXX. ..... Between the firing pin holes is stamped the serial number, 21934, year 1903. The average annual production those was 1500 to 2000 Ideal models.



Last edited by Argo44; 08/18/17 08:27 PM.

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Poudre pyroxylee, like poudre blanche, is simply a general term for smokeless powder. Does not refer to a specific powder, like PT, PJ, etc.

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No, but, it does refer to smokeless powder, and only one French proof powder is truly smokeless.

Powder T.

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Ted

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I need to get some data-points on La Manu SN's - working on it through relatives in Saint Chamond. I've been gradually compiling others based on what you all have posted over the years. For example,

From Larry:
post-1924. The little squiggle under the PT, on both the barrel flats and the water table, looks to me like the "supplementary mark for definitive proof in completely finished state". That's not a mark you see on many French doubles, and it's one that is more helpful in dating the gun.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=292630

And:

The "Crown" over "PT" around 1900 was for semi-smokeless T powder and after 1923 was for a presure of 12k psi at the 1st pressure point with smokeless T powder. Are semi-smokeless T and smokeless T the same and when does the gun in question date? Last the barrel maker had to put his name on the tubes(post 1923??) or the proofhouse would stamp them as foreign tubes as ARME ETRANGERE.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=131197&page=1

I'm making all of this - your comments - into a chronological encyclopedia (including the Darne SN post - which is a lot better than nothing) and at some point will put out a compendium. (gadzooks - somebody might already have done this?)




Last edited by Argo44; 08/01/17 10:41 PM.

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Powder T wasn't introduced until 1900, and was always a smokeless powder.


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Argo44 Offline OP
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Battle of Magersfontein on 11 December 1899 - Boers pin down a whole British army in South Africa during the second Boar War using Mausers with smokeless powder.

Last edited by Argo44; 08/10/17 08:49 PM.

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I'm continuing to compile a database of makers, barrel makers, marks, SN's etc 1880's to WWI. Here is a mystery for me. A "balance beam" trade mark on two different barrels. Any one have any idea what this means?

Example one, St. Etienne BLNE, 17.0 (16 ga), 6.5 chambers (in cm), double proofed for PT; SN is 23387 on gun, receiver, barrel. Here is the odd trademark: Above the "balance beam" TM appears to be the word "Depose"; below it (possibly) "Acier Comprese." It has to be post 1889 and pre 1913 (chambered in cm) and post c1900 (PT).








Example two: St. Etienne 18.2 (12 ga), 6.5 chambers (in cm), double proofed for PT. Ronchard Cizeron barrels (running rabbit mark on the barrel flats + the name). Gun SN on both receiver and barrel rib is 10,400. Above the "balance beam" TM appears to be the word "Depose" and below possible "Acier Tixphill"?? (second word unclear). It has to be post 1889 and pre 1913 (chambered in cm), and post c1900 (proofed for PT with the feathers). The gold medal could be the one given to Petrus at the 1904 St. Etienne exposition... meaning the barrel was made between 1904 and 1912 - or it could be one given to Ronchard-Cizeron in 1889 at the Universal Exposition (probably the latter since medaille d'or appears on RC barrels with Petrus's name).







There are two other identifying marks on this gun. Initial "D&C on the left barrel and "Choke Rectifie de Peuvel Petrus. Per this site, Petrus was a barrel maker, equipper, and barrel polisher before 1890. He received the Esoffier prize in 1895 and a gold medal at the 1904 St. Etienne exposition. He worked with Ronchard Cizeron and other prestigious arms makers.

https://www.pressreader.com/france/armes-de-chasse/20141216/281857231868305

Appreciate any help on the "balance beam" (or maybe a machine press?) TM. Thanks. Edit: The "Acier Compresse" is likely just a direct French translation of "Compressed Steel" which was used on the first Whitworth steel barrels in 1860's?

Found a couple of more Ronchard Cizeron barrels, first is 6.5 with the "balance" mark - looks like the words below are "Acier Comprime." Second is "65". (one pre 1912, the other post 1912). the mark does look like a press of some sort. I wonder if this is yet another Cizeron mark to go with the running rabbit?





Acier comprimé = procédé pour augmenter les caractéristiques d'un acier donné par écrouïssage. On augmente surtout la limite élastique au détriment de l'allongement à rupture en consommant les dislocations et lacunes du réseau cristallin. A l'époque, on faisait ce traitement à chaud pour diminuer ou "supprimer" les défauts de compacité du matériau.

Last edited by Argo44; 08/25/18 06:37 AM.

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I know there's not much more to say but I continue to plow ahead...with proof marks, dates, SN's etc. It's already been done but I think I can make it easier for future French gun shooters.

Here is a question...a Ronhard Cizeron hammer gun barrel, 6.5 (1889-1912) with the "Acier Comprime" press symbol along with with PS proof. http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-chasse-saint-etienne-chiens-calibre-16-65-item-3628117.html



Another site discussing a different gun says this about PS: "The letter R means that the barrels are compatible with smokeless powder and appeared in 1897. No 3R appeared in 1898. The barrels are stamped PS with a crown, a Saint-Etienne standard smokeless proof starting in 1901.". http://www.gournetusa.com/ideal.htm

I sure thought smokeless powder came with the PT mark from about 1900. So what is PS?

Last edited by Argo44; 08/21/17 11:34 PM.

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PS was an earlier, semi-smokeless powder. It continued to be used after 1900, but, had been in use prior to that as well.

The only R mark I've ever seen was for re-proof.

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Argo, here's some information on powder that may help a little with dating. From an article in Gun Digest by Lee Kennett:

PJ and PS were both used as proof powders from 1896-1914.
PM and PR, same thing from 1898-1914.
PT came into use in 1900, and was the only powder used for proof post-1914.

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