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I guess having a gun marked with a reproof has no bearing on what happened to the gun after reproof. Of course a 2017 reproof certainly should be a more reliable indication of the gun's condition than a decades old reproof, but I suppose no guarantee.

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So what it boils down to is that if Billy-Bob screws up while reloading because the dog pissed on his boot and distracted him, or because he drops an inappropriate magnum load into the chambers and blows the damn thing up... then he is ill informed and irresponsible.

But if some official at the Birmingham Proof House drops an equally inappropriate 18,000 psi or greater proof load into an 1880's gun that likely was originally chambered for early 2 1/2" loads, then that is informed and intelligent.

Originally Posted By: Toby Barclay
As many of you will know, I reproof most of my stock guns before sale, 'whether they need it or not'!


So I will continue to reproof most of my stock guns and hope that this sort of almost total loss doesn't happen again too soon.


Given the facts and present day realities, I wonder why on Earth you'd expect a different result if you keep permitting the Birmingham Proof House to touch off totally inappropriate loads in vintage doubles??? I recently bought a .450 BPE double rifle. If I attempt to turn it into a .458 Lott and blow it up, that is not the fault of the guy who sold it to me, or of the Leige Proof House.

EDIT: If the standard proof pressures have not changed, then how do you explain the recent news that a greater than usual number of guns are failing proof? It would appear that something had to change given the greater frequency of reports of failures. I add this edit due to the new previously undisclosed information that this gun HAD to be re-proved due to barrel honing and chamber lengthening taking it out of proof.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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I am sorry for your loss. I take it that proof failures are still very uncommon. What % of guns submitted fail I wonder. The fact that the barrels passed, but the frame failed, does seem to suggest that even after honing the gun was well worth the reproof attempt. After all I suspect far more barrels fail than any other cause of reproof failure.

It's not true all of us over here in the US are prone to shooting super hot, high pressure loads in our guns. We can buy lots pressure loads or reload our own. A good many here can either read or hunt with someone who reads for them and all of our factory shells, in this country, strongly state not for dmascus use. So we should be buying correct, over priced, fancy pants, ammo from exotic countries like GB.

We don't mind our dogs pissing on our foot unless the wife is not home. It's her job to let him out when nature calls so she has to clean it up. If she's gone we have to figure out which kid had the duty, which can get tedious. Besides that's why men wear boots to keep their feet dry unlike ladies who go around bare foot, even outside the kitchen.

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What I really like about guns out of proof is I can use that fact as a damned good bargaining chip when buying. DANGEROUS!


When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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There is a huge difference in having to re-proof in order to be able to sell a gun and just having it proofed to go through the process for "peace of mind". Stupid can not be fixed. Gov't regs must be followed to do business. While our SAMMI standards are higher than CIP it isn't that much and those are maximum pressures and not all loads are to that level. The problem is there is no way to know without pressure testing each lot of commercially loaded shells , and reloading component lots to really know. We can do the best we can to make educated guesses, and use high quality products. Proof houses are to provide gov't oversight of new manufactured firearms. The laws are not designed to have anything to do with fine collectable firearms. It all comes down to money. Fine vintage firearms are a tiny niche in the overall industry. "They" are from the gov't and are here to help !

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Originally Posted By: KY Jon


We don't mind our dogs pissing on our foot unless the wife is not home. It's her job to let him out when nature calls so she has to clean it up. If she's gone we have to figure out which kid had the duty, which can get tedious. Besides that's why men wear boots to keep their feet dry unlike ladies who go around bare foot, even outside the kitchen.


I like The Onion too.


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Originally Posted By: Toby Barclay
....Craigd, The reason why proof is valued by most shooters in the CIP area is that we CAN go into a gun shop and if the box of cartridges says it is suitable for the chamber length of our gun, we can use it with impunity. Obviously, once the gun leaves the CIP area, eg goes to the USA, there is no such standard and ignorance of what a suitable load might be could get someone into trouble. I make no criticism of the situation in the USA, I just try to manage the risk as best I can.

Thank you for the follow up comments. I think this is a good thing, now the shooter is engaged in what they're doing. Still, if in proof for 'standard', that alone doesn't prevent the chambering and firing of a 'superior' load.

In your opening comment, you mention that in recent years you have become accustomed to more barrel failures, though this example is different. Do you have any thought as to how much more pressure is involved with 'standard' proof? My understanding is measurement procedures have changed, so the proof loads are now different? If the guns are failing more often than in the past, is there some thought that the guns that pass have a better safety margin? Do you have any concern for the possibility that a future change happens that results in a higher failure rate than currently. Sorry for all the questions, I just find it truly interesting.

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Looking at the tag, I suspect the mark "action off face" is a bit of understated British humor, applied after proof load number 1 undid a lot of good gunsmithing.

Of course the gun passed view before being submitted, but, proof has changed in England. Each barrel gets fired with two proof loads, one that generates maximum proof in the chamber area, and another that generates it at a point about 9" from the breech. THIS is the cause of so much scrap iron we are witnessing here, from this point in history.
If it were my gun, and I lived in Merry England, I would have specified black powder reproof, if that option is still available, and happily shot it with light loads the rest of my life. It wasn't my gun, and I don't live in England, so, perhaps now it will provide parts to get a similar gun working someday.
Keith, I love your analysis on who blows up guns, and how could anyone believe one was smarter than the other. Hilarious.
Still makes me quezy, looking at that action bar.
Toby, unless I am mistaken, the owner could have used the gun the rest of his life, even if it wasn't in proof, but, it couldn't legally be sold.
It might be time for you guys doing the repairs over in England to do some soul searching, and come up with the equivalent of a black powder reproof with the proof house, for guns that are still useful, but, not suitable for more modern ammunition. Black powder reproof was once available, it may still be.

Better that than creating what we see here.


Best,
Ted

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Just a question, but is the more destructive proof currently in vogue a result of European Union CIP proof requirements? Will Brexit have any bearing on that question?...Geo

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Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
....proof has changed in England. Each barrel gets fired with two proof loads, one that generates maximum proof in the chamber area, and another that generates it at a point about 9" from the breech....

Thanks Ted, there's the problem. Maybe a third proof load that generates maximum pressure 18" from the breech would help a little. So much for the ole graphs showing maximum pressure builds just pass the chamber.

It is interesting that the most common increases in proof failure that were noted in the beginning, had to do with barrel failures that are generally blamed on obstructions when these discussion come up.

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