March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
2 members (Gunning Bird, L. Brown), 864 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,015
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 9 of 19 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 18 19
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Larry,
If there had been a big diference between the four varieties of J powder, it would have been marked on the flats of the gun which variety the gun was proofed with.

It wasn't. End of story.



Ted, it's not all about proof. Let's say someone finds reference to an old load used in X, Y, or Z old French gun. (Have you skipped over Drew's very useful references to standard loads in vintage American guns???) Now we're talking about SERVICE PRESSURE vs PROOF. And let's say that said load uses J1 (which Journee tells us is useful for waterfowl loads); or J2, which he tells us works well, generally, in hunting loads. (Interestingly, he also tells us that J is only useful for bullets in rifled weapons, velocities between 400-650 meters per second. So of no value at all for those of us looking for something that will work in a shotgun.) So if you stop at proof, you're bypassing everything that might have been known at the time about which loads would work well in a given shotgun, regardless of what powder was used to proof it.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sorry, Larry, but, here, and now, in realville, where I live, it is just so much minutia.

I might use a circa 1900 French shotgun. If I found a bunch of 1900 vintage ammunition, I wouldn't use it.

I don't typically run loads that are near proof loads, either, but, there are exceptions. I'd bet the 1 1/4oz Federal I chamber in my Silver Snipe are pretty hot, but, the gun has seen like 4 of them in the last 20 seasons.

I'm good.



Best,
Ted

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Ted, we're mostly sxs shooters. Many of us vintage sxs shooters. The Silver Snipe is a fine gun, but it's neither vintage nor a sxs. Minutia is what we're all about. How many questions do you see here about "What can I shoot in my _____ made in _______?" A good clue would be, when that information is available, what loads were used in that gun back when it was made?

If you want to ignore the minutia, I'd suggest you start a Silver Snipe BB. smile Then everyone would agree with you that we don't need no stinkin' minutia.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Larry,
People want to know what they can use in an old (whatever) TODAY, not what someone could or did use 120 years ago. Nobody can use any of the different versions of powder J TODAY, because it has been obsolete since long before most of us were born ( you, excepted, of course).
Knowing what you can or should use in the gun will be derived, hopefully, from an understanding of what level old gun was proofed at, and with a bit of reverence to the age of the gun, which didn't matter to the original owner, but, hopefully does to the current caretaker. We have access to low pressure loads that should take the worry out of using old guns, and that have NOTHING in common with loads that were used a century or more in the past.
Seeing the condition of many old European gun bores, I'd suggest that loads featuring black powder and corrosive priming were available long after smokeless was considered normal. Perhaps they were substantially cheaper?
When you stumble on to that keg of pre-WWI powder J, Larry, let not your heart be troubled thinking I will pester you for some of it to use in my guns.
I promise, I won't.


Best,
Ted

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
So all of Drew's posts from contemporary sources providing the ORIGINAL service loads for vintage guns are of no value? Wow.

There's a whole lot of understanding to be gained from BOTH original proof AND original service loads, Ted. For example, I expect a whole bunch of folks posting here now likely understand (maybe even YOU do, although I'm wondering based on the apparent thickness of your skull) that a reference to "psi" in 1900 isn't the same as a reference to "psi" currently. Has to do with crusher vs piezo-electronic measurements, which are not the same. If you don't understand that, you don't understand either proof or service pressure data from historical references.

Exactly how do you think we determine just how low the pressures should be on our current "low pressure loads"? Even relatively modern references to proof can be confusing. Confused me when I wrote an article on the subject for Shooting Sportsman. Turns out that 850 bar isn't really 850 bar as measured by transducers. Nope, it's a lead crusher measurement. (Or at least it was for the Brits.) Which means that what we thought we knew about appropriate pressures for 850 bar guns was wrong. Thanks to a response from the Birmingham Proof House, we got that one straightened out.

No one is suggesting using century-old powder in current loads. But it's certainly valuable--to some of us if not to you (and certainly not to you if you're only worried about your Silver Snipe)--to know the characteristics--shot charge, velocity, pressure--of the service loads that were used in those vintage French guns with a PJ proofmark. If we can find that data, what better guidance can there be for us to use in working up loads using modern components?

But hey, Ted . . . just go on shooting your triple proofed Darnes and your Silver Snipe. No worries, mate. And do your best to tell us that any references to "period" literature is of no value, since those are just old loads. And after all, we're using plastic hulls and plastic wads and modern powder, so who the hell cares anyhow?

Well, some of us do, even if you don't. So if you have nothing constructive to contribute, why don't you just . . . not contribute to the particular discussion in question? I'd say "butt out" but I'm working on being polite.

Last edited by L. Brown; 09/01/17 07:31 AM.
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Larry and Ted, there are only 4 or 5 on the board who know something about French guns and I've learn a heck of a lot from both of you. As for the dispute about PJ...if PJ is stamped on the gun, it is a date maker for us. However, it's also nice to know the breakdown of the mixes of PJ as an intellectual exercise. So thanks to both of you for expanding our knowledge of the French gun industry at the turn of the century, a special interest of mine.

By the way, we've also established firmly that there were a lot of French guns at the turn of the last century being chambered for shells other than 65mm (6.5 cm). Wish we had a catalog for French shotgun shells from that time period along with the loads. Now that would be interesting. (edit: Why? Because I own a 1906 16ga Gerest Berthon Staint Etienne gun chambered for 7.0 cm)

In any event, here is another gun I'd like to date because I believe it gives a time marker for dating Zavattero Frerres shotgun serial numbers. This gun is on gunbroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/Item/688306821









The seller doesn't know the model or date - I believe it is Zavattero Frerres made between 1908-1912..SN 49697.
-- Per the last image I believe this is Zavattero Frerres (we went through this in another line and decided the letters in the oval were ZFr) http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=443491&page=1

-- Chambered in centimeters (cm) so 1889 - 1912
-- Proofed for PT - post 1900
-- Received a prize in London 1908 - so post 1908 (I've confirmed ZFr received a prize at the 1908 London Exhibition).




ZFr was founded in 1880 and lasted until 1965. (This gun doesn't have the CZ or FZ stamps which were ZFr models which came out in the 1920's).

I don't know the SN of the ZFr gun we commented on above (previous) line - it wasn't photographed. I believe the guns were consecutively numbered more or less....and will try to expand on this. There's a ZFr gun on Passion la chasse SN 97701 with a comment by Neltir which he dated to July 1951.
(Graph points:
.....1880 - 0;
.....1910 - 49697;
.....1951 - 97701 ( minus four years 1914-1918)(and 5 years 1940-45)
a graph could be constructed but the SN's for the company must exist somewhere because Neltir had the SN down to the month).
(http://www.passionlachasse.com/t22381-identification-fusil-juxtapose
The barrels for that gun were made in Belgium by Lovenfosse Hardy & Fils - I think he refers to the crossed rifles with stars at the bottom of the proof:




Last edited by Argo44; 09/09/17 10:41 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Online Content
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Argo, you've been doing great work. Those prizes, the CM dates and the PJ narrow it down significantly. Expect that's about as good as you're going to get unless you come up with a ZF serial number list.

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Originally Posted By: Argo44
WC commented above: "Nitro proof relative to BP proof."

Curious about "BP proof." You guys know this but might clarify what this is and when it started ended.

Here is a line about Zapatto Freres gun with a BP on the barrel we never identified; is this the BP referred to? http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...2760#Post442760



By the way I knew I'd seen that logo "BP" or whatever before. It's on the barrels of the French "Wonder" lock gun I posted to show that my plain Jane war trophy 12 bore was not alone. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=449178 It looks like it's actually "JB" and that we've been looking at it upside down. I wonder if it is actually a symbol for barrel makerJean Breuil? (Not sure of this - the font looks identical but to contort the BP into a JB would require some doing - maybe having it stamped backwards).


Last edited by Argo44; 09/01/17 08:02 PM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Argo44 Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,134
Likes: 309
Come on you Fusil de Chasse Jusxtapose Francophlies. All of you have lots of dating data. And you are cache-ing it like a French chef (who would never ever give you the whole recipe). It's now time to give up your secrets and post it here - even if piecemeal. We can "crowd source" the time chart. (if it has x it's post yyyy... etc.).

And all those anonymous serial numbers on Saint Etienne guns? Someone - one of the 120 gun makers in the city - put them there. Compile a chart..you'll get a statistics type of answer. (look at that "wonder" lock - we now have two datapoints...and can build on that).

(I'm tempted to buy that book on the IDEAL and scan the SN chart...everyone in France seems to have it.). And I'm wondering how many more records are out there.

Look, 50 years ago after coming back from Vietnam I took a summer job in the University of Alabama Geological Survey office. They had a warehouse full of geological core borings going down 18,000' but hadn't a clue on where they were bored. I researched the markings on the huge warehouse holdings, did research on the USGA publications and identified almost 90% of the core holdings, determining they'd once been analyzed. (long before the internet..i.e. books) This is not rocket science.

Last edited by Argo44; 09/02/17 12:59 AM.

Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,711
Likes: 730
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
So all of Drew's posts from contemporary sources providing the ORIGINAL service loads for vintage guns are of no value? Wow.

There's a whole lot of understanding to be gained from BOTH original proof AND original service loads, Ted. For example, I expect a whole bunch of folks posting here now likely understand (maybe even YOU do, although I'm wondering based on the apparent thickness of your skull) that a reference to "psi" in 1900 isn't the same as a reference to "psi" currently. Has to do with crusher vs piezo-electronic measurements, which are not the same. If you don't understand that, you don't understand either proof or service pressure data from historical references.

Exactly how do you think we determine just how low the pressures should be on our current "low pressure loads"? Even relatively modern references to proof can be confusing. Confused me when I wrote an article on the subject for Shooting Sportsman. Turns out that 850 bar isn't really 850 bar as measured by transducers. Nope, it's a lead crusher measurement. (Or at least it was for the Brits.) Which means that what we thought we knew about appropriate pressures for 850 bar guns was wrong. Thanks to a response from the Birmingham Proof House, we got that one straightened out.

No one is suggesting using century-old powder in current loads. But it's certainly valuable--to some of us if not to you (and certainly not to you if you're only worried about your Silver Snipe)--to know the characteristics--shot charge, velocity, pressure--of the service loads that were used in those vintage French guns with a PJ proofmark. If we can find that data, what better guidance can there be for us to use in working up loads using modern components?

But hey, Ted . . . just go on shooting your triple proofed Darnes and your Silver Snipe. No worries, mate. And do your best to tell us that any references to "period" literature is of no value, since those are just old loads. And after all, we're using plastic hulls and plastic wads and modern powder, so who the hell cares anyhow?

Well, some of us do, even if you don't. So if you have nothing constructive to contribute, why don't you just . . . not contribute to the particular discussion in question? I'd say "butt out" but I'm working on being polite.



Larry,
Calm down. If you want to study service loads that were available to hunters in France, circa 1900 or so, you may feel free. But, Joe average, with a cool old French double, still working 40-60 hours a week, simply doesn't have to do that. He can simply pick a load out of a catalog, that runs about 30% less than proof pressure, 12,000 PSI in the case of single proof with powder J (any variety of powder J, by the way) and he is golden. He can consult a current reloading catalog, and load the same loads up for himself, if he is so inclined. Further, it is quite common to find arms that were double or triple proofed with powder J, making the excercise of wringing ones hands over what load to use a bit redundant.

Welcome to France, Larry.

When it comes to actually shooting the gun, today, study of what was won't get you too far. The good duck load you mentioned, above, isn't legal to use anymore. The proofhouse in St. Etienne gave you the information you needed to know, right on the flats.
Worried the gun may have been honed out of proof? Measure it, and compare it to what the proofhouse said it measured, the day it was proofed. See what level of proof it passed, and run it below that. Easy.
You are correct, all of my own guns can be used without regard to pressure of the ammunition, a feature that has come in handy more times than I care to remember. A triple proof Darne, proofed at 18,000 psi, eliminates any non sense about what ammunition I will be using that day.
The study of antique ammunition is an interesting one,
I'll grant you that. But, it won't help you too much in finding or developing a load for a similarly aged gun, with the components and powder we use today.

In no way did I suggest that the study of "Any" (your writing, above) period literature was of no use, Larry. Don't put your words on the board and credit them to my keyboard.

Gene,
I always assumed that little mark you are seeking information about was a barrel makers mark. I have seen it a few times, but, never had a manufacturer to associate it with. There were likely dozens of barrel makers in France in that era.
I have no firm information on that mark, however. I, also, doubt the proofhouse would have stamped it on the rib.

Best,
Ted

Page 9 of 19 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 18 19

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.068s Queries: 34 (0.038s) Memory: 0.8938 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 09:35:09 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS