doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Verney-Carron Heliduplex S X S

Sand, here is a line from 2011 on Verney-Carron involving most of the usual suspects above. It is long and gets into arguments over Belgian barrels and Belgian use of VC patents etc. But it's very good.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...amp;type=thread

You'll notice though that it confuses HELICE with an actual lock or an actual patent - it isn't. Aas we've established I in another line HELICE is just a generic name for Helical and it was used by many companies in many different forms. Nevertheless even the French get confused and there is a gun on Guns International now adversing a "French-made Helice" SxS.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100827533

Argo, Thanks for the info. In regards to the gun, I neglected to mention that it has the toplever stop,which is very unusual, and the Helico grip is a kind of combination of a Purdey underbolt and a barrel extension on top and bottom of barrels, if that makes sense. It seems immensely strong, and I kind of wonder why other makers didn't use it.The bottom barrel extension sits right below the ejector legs and is locked by a lug that operates off of the toplever spindle. Super strong setup,but must have been a bear to fit. Regards, Sandlapper

Argo, I forgot to ask earlier; do you have any idea what 8400 francs would translate into in dollars back in the 1930's? I wonder what this gun would have sold for new? Thanks, Marcus

Just catching up, after having been away from the computer for a few days. Thanks to WC and Argo . . . and a few additions and corrections:

Ailes--side clips
Canon raye dispersant--Rifled spreader barrel (usually on Euro woodcock guns)
Cylindrique--cylinder choke (synonym: lisse)
Plein--full (as in choke)
Poudre blanche--smokeless powder
Contre-platine (or, I think, fausse platine)--false sideplate

Canons frettes--Aren't necessarily sleeved barrels as we think of it in English, which means replacing the original ones. For example, the Manufrance Robust was made from scratch with canons frettes. Not sure if the same term would be applied to doubles like those made by Beretta or SKB (Japanese), which are monobloc but don't have the "step" joint where the barrels mate up with the chambers.

That statement likely explains why not many makers adopted it. Next question is "Super Strong" in what direction??
Most people seem to forget, ignore or just plain don't know, that the major points where strength is needed on a break open gun is not in a rotational direction but axial. It has been proven time & again that one sturdy bolt is adequate to hold a break open shotgun closed while firing. In fact both W W Greener & Dan Lefever made claims to having fired their respective guns with all bolts removed & held them shut by the simple act of wrapping their thumb across the tops of the barrels.
"IF" you give a smoke test to a whole lot of multi bolted doubles you will find "One" bolt to be doing all the work with the others providing ornamentation & "Bragging Points".

Here is the translation of the publicity for HELICE-GRIP - not very useful but at least I learned some new words:- welcome corrections from the French experts.



Helice-Grip

N�est-il pas superflu aujourd�hui de parler encore de L�HELICE-GRIP, cette fermeture fameuse dont le success est si grand et les imitateurs se nombreux?
It is not superfluous these days to talk again about l�HELICE-GRIP, that famous closing system the success of which has been so great that there are numerous imitators.

Il est utile pourtant de consigner ici quelques details techniques pour mettre en garde les chasseurs contre les nombreuses contrefa�ons qui peuvent leur �tre propos�es.
It�s useful however, to put down here some technical details in order to warn hunters about the number of counterfeits that are out there.

A la page 3 vous traversez la reproduction de nos marques deposees. Elles identifiant l�un des divers dispositifs de L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney Carron�
On page 3 you can see reproductions of our trademarks. They identify one of several different images of L�HELICE GRIP �Verney Carron.� (note: posted below)

SON PRINCIPE. - Its principle.
L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney-Carron� est une application aux fusil de chasse de la fermeture des pieces d�artillerie. Au lieu du verrou qui frotte, s�use et joue, l'�crou qui serre toujours a bloc parce qu�il est reglable.
L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney-Carron� is an an application to a shotgun of the closing locks of artillery pieces. Instead of a lock which rubs, wears and plays, (it has) a nut which always is tight because it is adjustable.

L�HELICE GRIP se compose d�une cl� top-lever, de forme sp�ciale et d�une seule piece. Termin�e par une tige portant un filetage carre a grande resistance. La tete de cette cl� est dispos�e de mani�re a former boulon de serrage sur la bande des canons.
L�HELICE GRIP is composed of a top-lever key in a special form made of one sole piece terminated by a rod carrying a square thread of great resistance. The head of this key is arranged so as to form a tightening bolt on the barrel rib.

SA COMPOSITION. - Nos Clients son familiarises maintenant avec les piece constitutives de la fermeture HELICE GRIP dont ils appr�cient l�extreme simplicit�. Alors que la fermeture a triple verrou de type courant comport sept pieces differentes, L�HELICE�GRIP �Verney-Carron� comport quatre pieces seulement essentiellement massives and robustes.
ITS MAKE-UP: Our clients are now familiar with the constituent pieces of the HELICE GRIP closing system and will appreciate its extreme simplicity. While the triple lock closing system of a current type is comprised of seven different parts (Note: referring to the Webley top lever system), L�HELICE-GRIP �Verney-Carron� is made up of only four parts essentially massive and robust.

FUNCTIONNEMENT. - Le fonctionnement de L�HELICE-GRIP est connu de longue date. Il est facile de comprendre en effet que la tete de la cl� vient serrer progressivement jusqu�a bloquage complet la prolongement de la bande des canons come le ferait un boulon, auquel L�HELICE-GRIP es �troitement apparente.
HOW IT WORKS: The functioning of L�HELICE-GRIP has been known for a long time. It�s easy to understand in effect that the head of the key tightens progressively until it completely blocks the extension of the gun rib as if it were a bolt to which L�HELICE-GRIP is closely related

$ / French Franc exchange rate:

Marcus - your gun would have cost in the neighborhood of $210 in 1939 . That was a lot of money back then. I speculate it was the "Integrelbloc" system of casting the locks with the barrels that was the reason for cost...I'll have a go at translating that page of the sales broacher.

Here are the historical exchange rates for the French Franc:

1930: $1.00 = 25.48 FF
1931: $1.00 = 25.51 FF
1932: $1.00 = 25.46 FF
1933: $1.00 = 19.88 FF
1934: $1.00 = 15.22 FF
1935: $1.00 = 15.15 FF
1936: $1.00 = 16,36 FF
1937: $1.00 = 24.72 FF
1938: $1.00 = 34.74 FF
1939: $1.00 = 39.84 FF

1939, 8,400 FF = about $210.

Gene Williams

I'll translate this page since it explains the VC trademark Integrelbloc barrels. In the drawings you can clearly see the locks split between each barrel tube. (Welcome corrections and notice the use of "Massive" below (ils diff�re du premier en ce que les crochets sont relev�s au moment de la forge sur le massif meme des tubes). (might it mean "the same steel blank as the tubes?" or this might be "barrel flats")



L�Assemblage de canons - Assembly of the barrels
Les gravures ci-contre repr�sentent les trois modes d�assemblage que nous utilisons dans le montage de nos canons.
The below engravings represent the three methods of assembly that we use in the mounting of our barrels

Premier MODE - Crochet et bandes rapportees
First METHOD - Barrel hooks/locks and rib attached.

Dans le premier MODE, la bande et les crochets sont ind�pendants des tubes auxquels ils sont ajustes et soudes, a l�aide d�un alliage special.
In the first METHOD, the rib and the lock/hooks are independent of the barrel tubes to which they are adjusted and soldered with the help of a special alignment tool.

A remarquer que les crochets d�attache ajustes en queue d�aronde entre les tubes forment corps avec eux et que rien ne saurait les detacher.
It is to be noted that the hooks/locks are adjusted in dovetail fashion between the tubes forming a body with them such the nothing can detach them,

Se mode d�assemblage est plus generalment employe et donne les meilleurs r�sultats.
This method of assembly is most generally employed and gives the best results.


Deuxi�me MODE, crochets 1/2 bloc, bandes rapport�es.
Second METHOD, barrel hooks/locks in 1/2 (on each barrel), Barrel rib attached.

Le deuxi�me MODE d�assemblage est utilise dans les canons des armes de prix au-dessus de la moyenne. Il diff�re du premier en ce que les crochets sont relev�s au moment de la forge sur le massif meme des tubes, chaque canon apport s demi-partie de crochet.
The second METHOD of assembly is used on the barrels of guns of higher price than the norm. It differs from the first method in that the hooks/locks are raised up at the moment of forging the large ends of the tubes themselves.


Troiseme MODE - �Integralbloc�, crochet et prolongement de bandes releves par moiti� sur chaque tube.
Barrel hooks/locks and the rib extension are cast in half on each gun tube.

Dans le troisi�me MODE, non seulement les crochets, mais le prolongement de la bande elle-m�me sont relev�s sur le massif meme des tubes, chaque canon apportant la moiti� du crochet et la moiti� du prolongement de la band; c�est l��integralbloc�.
In the third METHOD, not only the barrel hooks/locks, but the extension of the rib itself are cast/raised up on large ends of the tubes, each barrel carrying one half of the hook and one half of the rib extension; This is the �Integralbloc.�

Est-ce a dire que seuls ces canons soient a meme de donner des r�sultats de tir satisfaisant? Evidemment non. Neanmoins, le tireur de pigeons, qui a de bonnes raison pour conserver par devers lui toutes les chance de r�ussite, le sportsman que surveille la galerie, a qui se fait un point d�honneur de d�crocher dans la nue l�oiseau lance par le rabatteur, n�h�siteront pas a d�bourser la fort somme pour acqu�rir ce canon merveilleux de regularite., de groupement et de penetration et en mot, ce canon tout a fait exceptionnel. Mais h�tons-nous d�ajouter que l�outillage perfection dont nous disposons nous permet de fournir aussi, soit avec canons a crochets independants, soit avec canons a crochets demi-bloc, des arms parfaites et d�un pouvoir meurtrier plus que suffisant, pour atteindre et abattre un piece de gibier aux distance maxima auxquelles il es raisonnable de tirer a la chasse.
Can we say that only barrels made in this manner can give satisfactory shooting results? Clearly no. Nevertheless, the pigeon shooter, who has good reason to afford himself every chance to succeed, the sportsman who watches the gallery, to whom it is a point of honor to hit on the fly the bird launched by the keeper, will not hesitate to disburse a strong sum of money to acquire these barrels, marvelous for their consistency of groups and of penetration and in a word, these barrels absolutely exceptional. But we hasten to add that the perfect tooling which we have at our disposal permits us also to furnish with with barrels with independent hooks/locks, or with barrels forged in half, perfect guns and of a murderous power more than sufficient, in order to find and kill game at maximum distance at which it is reasonable to fire during the hunt.

Hi Argo,
good translation...
"crochets" translated literally as "hooks" are "lumps", and not "locks".
VC-

I also note the usage of "massif" in the original.
It means the "from the initial mass" of steel before forming/machining. It's akin to the use of "billet" in English.
WC-