doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefever questions

As Miller previously noted, the Ithaca produced double barreled Lefevers all have six digit serial numbers over 100,000. They do not have sideplates. The majority of these were the Lefever Nitro Special guns built between 1921 and 1947. Dan Lefever left the Lefever Arms Co. around early 1902 and started production of the D.M. Lefever crossbolt gun in Syracuse, N.Y., Defiance, Ohio, and Bowling Green, Ohio. As noted, they all had a Greener type crossbolt, and less than 1200 were produced in total. These all had a four digit serial number.

Personally, I'd love to know how some folks decide so definitely that certain sideplate Lefevers were assembled by Ithaca. To listen to some of them, virtually any Lefever with non-standard features is judged to be assembled by Ithaca. As I said earlier, it is highly doubtful that Lefever Arms Co. had several years worth of unfinished parts on hand when they sold the parts to Ithaca. Companies just don't tie up that much capital in unfinished inventory. I have read that those with a letter P or T stamped on the forend hanger are Ithaca assembled, and tend to agree... but that could also include guns sent back to Ithaca for re-barreling or other repairs. It also appears that Ithaca Gun Co. ran out of Lefever made English Walnut stocks, and made some stocks in Ithaca, N.Y. out of Black Walnut.

There are no surviving production records to say definitively one way or another. I think that returns for re-barreling or repairs could also be the case with some of those Lefevers with serial numbers as early as the 38,000 range that are attributed to Ithaca. A smattering of early unfinished frames may have been found and finished after the move to Ithaca, but it makes absolutely no sense to think that Lefever Arms Co. had thousands of unfinished frames for as much as 15 years prior to the sale to Ithaca.

I once thought that a 12 Ga. FE Lefever I own was probably assembled by Ithaca because it has E Grade features and engraving. It's serial number dates it to 1902 if we can believe the serial number list. I'm much more inclined to think it was built in Syracuse now that I've learned more. When we get into the highest five digit serial numbered sideplate guns, especially those with mismatched features such as Miller's H Grade with the 73,xxx serial number, it becomes much easier to attribute those guns to Ithaca production.

Side plate F grade LEFEVER ARMS Co guns



ITHACA Produced/Assembled Side plate clues:


Huge clue - "Ithaca NY" rarely found on the side plate guns



Ithaca marketed/ produced Lefever Nitro Special box lock

Keith. Also note in regards to the E/F grade. I don't understand the common confusion - wishful thinking perhaps- but late Syracuse F grade guns had a delightful game birds in circles motif. I have seen them advertised as "mis-tamped Es" or "lightly stamped such that the bottom leg of the E doesn't show "

Late F grade:

Keith and Marks_21 thank you for the explanation and the pictures. That along with some googling of the various models has helped me understand the different grades and who produced them.

Tamid,

The short answer is, if the gun says "Ithaca, NY" on it...it was made by Ithaca.

That covers everything except Syracuse Lefevers which were assembled from parts. A very small (as in "tiny") number of these have Ithaca, NY on them, because the sideplates were yet to be stamped at the time Ithaca acquired the remnants of the company. The rest of them say Syracuse, but have other identifying cues. Most obvious among these cues, are mismatched features per given grades.

There are some other more subtle marks, the details of which have been discussed on Lefever forum threads you can find, if you are so inclined to geek out.

- Nudge

Keith,

Your points are well taken. And one man's guess is as good as another. Like you, I find it hard to believe that the Durstans had thousands of guns worth of parts lying around. Its unlikely for ANY business, but especially so for a company in leaner times.

It is possible that some of the mixy-matching was done by the Durstans. Things like Krupp barrels on guns as low as H grade, and additional amounts of engraving per given grade are easily as attributable to the Durstans as to Ithaca.

But when you get to the markings...the forearm "P", the double stamped serial number on the barrels, and especially the "E" added to grade stamps for ejector guns, it makes more sense to me that a different management was doing this than the same one. Because altering markings dont move guns out the door in tougher times...but mixing parts and features will.

- Nudge

My G in the 23xxx serial number range seems to have F engraving but clearly marked "G" . It is listed for sale here.

Other than the H grade in the 73K range I mentioned I have only one other which "Might" be Ithaca assembled. This is an FE grade gun SN 38,025. Everything about the gun is F except the barrels. It has 30" Chain Damascus barrels. Chain Damascus is more commonly associated with E grade guns & there is an E stamped of these barrels. The Frame is marked F. All appearance to me is that it is an F grade gun fitted with E grade barrels. It has no other of the commonly referred to indications of Ithaca assembly. All serial numbers do match. Has a duck on one plate & quail on the other. Both are flying, not falling, & over appropriate vegetation, the duck over marsh plants & the quail over field plants.
When I bought this gun it was on consignment from an old gentleman who reportedly bought it New. Unfortunately I did not have the sense at the time to get his name & try to contact him for further information. He could quite possibly have told me when it was purchased which would have shed some light on who built it. I bought it in 1968, first gun I had to fill out the form 4477 on. depending on his age at time of purchase he could very well have bought it in proper sequence. I bought it at a Western Auto store in a town about 20 miles from where I live. This was my very first Lefever. I had read about them & had mentioned them to a co-worker. He had gone in this store & saw it & came to work that night & told me about it. I went the next day & bought it. This was in fact the first Genuine Lefever I had ever seen, had only seen the Ithaca Nitro's prior to this one.

Another Lefever, a C Grade, marked Ithaca, New York

Marks_21, I know about the evolution that led to more extensive engraving in the later guns, but the FE I mentioned earlier is a 1902 vintage, going by the serial number. It has quite a bit more engraving coverage than the one you provided a picture of, and it has Krupp Essen fluid steel barrels. The game scene engraving includes a setter and a pointer in circles on the sideplates, and a flying grouse on the trigger guard. It has gold plated triggers, and it has the sear adjusting screws on the sideplates. It also has the sculpted frame bottom, and the wood has the best marble cake figure I have seen on any F Grade. It would not be out of place on a C or even a B grade. If I was unscrupulous, it would be very easy to turn the F into an E, and no one who knew Lefevers would bat an eye.

This was my very first Syracuse Lefever. I met a guy in the parking lot of a local gun show who had two doubles and a Model 12 Winchester to sell. I bought the L.C. Smith 20 Gauge Ideal Grade with auto ejectors, and left the Lefever behind. He had given me his business card, so I called him a couple days later, and he still had the Lefever. He knew nothing about the guns as they had belonged to his late father-in-law. I honestly thought the gun was a 16 gauge. But as it turned out, I was very fortunate to luck into one of the scarce small frame 12 gauge Lefevers. It weighs a bit under 6 lb. 4 oz. Had I bought one of the typical 7 to 8 pounders, I might not have been so smitten, but that one started a 25 year love affair with Lefevers. In all that time, I have only bought one other 12 gauge Lefever gun that has the small frame, and surprisingly, it is an I Grade that weighs about 6 lb. 5 oz. These small frame 12 gauge guns do not have the XX stamp on the water table as seen on the 16 and 20 gauge guns.