doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Lefever questions

Mark Dube,

Well there you have it...clearly stamped "G" but very definitely NOT a G. I have a G right in that serial range and it has only a single line engraved around each plate. Unlike others comments, I cant say i have ever seen a gun with a frame stamp that seemed wrong...only barrel stamps.

I am definitely NOT of the opinion that any gun with a letter on the barrels was assembled by Ithaca. There are way too many of these. Frankly, I think people way overestimate the number of Ithaca guns. And the Ithaca guns have several hallmarks which tip them off, as explained by Buck Hamlin in an LACA newsletter, and at least one DGJ arricle, as I recall.

Also i believe the Ithaca assembled guns don't start to sprinkle in until roughly the 38xxx range, per the LACA.

Neat gun!

- Nudge

I think we may all be over thinking Lefevers. I doubt they ever had a large inventory completed and sitting on hand waiting for orders. If a customer wanted a F grade I can see them taking a G grade and having the engraving upgraded to F style. After all F and G were the same basic gun. Perhaps they just got an order for a G grade with F grade engraving. I'm sure they accommodated special orders all the time. Might have done the upgrade for just a couple dollars more.

The gun looks all original to me so I think whatever was done to blur the G-F grade was done at the factory intentionally to fill an quick order or fill a special order. Could have been as simple as getting an order for a gun with F grade engraving and only G grades were on hand. No need to build one just alter this one. Maybe they upgraded the engraving to close the deal.

Or it could have been a simple misunderstanding by the engraver.

Or perhaps it was intended to be an ungraded Lefever "Presentation" gun and someone simply failed to read the order? With Lefever guns one guess as to "why things is" is as good as another.
And may I add a case in point, as about 2 years ago I purchased a later vintage Ithaca production DS Grade 12-bore Lefever; which I purchased because it was so danged odd. The gun was in all respects a G grade gun with standard G grade Damascus barrels, dolls head rib extension, and cocking indicators; otherwise it was DS quality with no engraving, plain wood, and standard DS checkering pattern. The gun wasn't perfect; but was in extremely good condition, and had never seen any hard usage. When I told Buck Hamlin about this Lefever he said he never seen another DS with those three features, and I allowed him to talk me out of that gun; but I still regret doing so.

A DS Grade with all of those G grade feature is another variation I have never seen. I can understand why you might regret letting it get away from you. I have a couple of the seldom seen DS Grades that are identical to H Grade Twist barreled guns, other than the grade stamp. This would also include LAC buttplates, and capped pistol grip stocks. But there is no reason to believe they were assembled that way by Ithaca from H grade parts.

I also agree with KY Jon that it is unlikely they ever had a large inventory of unsold guns on hand, or a large inventory of unfinished parts for that matter. This was a company that was having enough recurring financial problems that Dan Lefever was forced to take on investors and relinquish control to the Durston family. Shortages of parts probably led to many of the variations we see, when parts intended for a higher grade were used to complete an order. It is for this reason that I also agree with Miller and Nudge that far too many guns are attributed to Ithaca production just because they have some unusual features. I think it's absurd to believe that the Durstons had several years worth of unfinished parts on hand when they sold the Lefever name, equipment and the inventory to Ithaca. They were obviously more interested in ramping up production of automotive gears and transmissions than in expanding production of shotguns. But I have no more to back up that statement than those who continue to insist that Ithaca built a large percentage of the Syracuse Lefever type guns.

Thanks guys!

That's precisely what I figured but as always your experience and references add credibility.

You also reminded me that the DGJ set sitting ignored in "cave" is due to be reviewed.

Keith, the right side is almost identical to the left, the wings on the "turnip" are posed slightly differently though.



Mark

At what approximate serial number did Ithaca start production of Lefevers?

Tamid,

It was the Lefever NAME that Ithaca was after.

While Ithaca did assemble some guns of the original Lefever Arms design (Dan Lefever's design), they did so primarily by piecing together guns from existing parts stock. How many of these they made is a source of debate among Lefever fans, but it was only a small percentage, and the serial numbers vary sporadically, but the earliest guns of Ithaca assembly are in the 38xxx range. But understand that that doesnt mean that Ithaca "took over" Lefever production at that point. It just means examples start to be peppered in starting in that range.

After finishing those Syracuse Lefevers there was a gap in time of a couple years before Ithaca then introduced a brand new line of guns of THEIR OWN design, which they "branded" Lefever Nitro Specials. They also made Lefever branded trap guns, and the short-lived "A-Grade."

See Walt Snyder's book for a breakdown of production and serial numbers, but suffice to say, aside from the small number of original side plate "Syracuse Lefevers" Ithaca assembled from parts (roughly circa 1916-1919), all of the "Lefever Arms Co" guns which say "Ithaca, NY" have absolutely nothimg to do with Dan Lefever, or any designs he ever created.

The owners of Ithaca were shrewd business men. They acquired the very best brand name of American doubles, and then used that name to sell the heck out of a mid-priced line of guns. In fact, Ithaca made roughly 4x the number of "Lefever" guns than Dan Lefever ever did.

Such was the value of Dan's name in those days. In earlier years Dan Lefever built the finest doubles in America.

- Nudge

It is noted that all Ithaca built "Lefever Arms Co" guns of Ithaca design both Nitro Special & A grade are numbered above 100,000.
I own the highest known numbered gun in the side plated series, unless another has surfaced recently. It is an Ithaca assembled gun, is H grade with DS wood. It has a different SN on the barrels & frame only 4 digits apart. Both appear to be over stamped from a previous number. One number is 73,038 & the other is 73,042. Without getting it out to look I forget which is on the barrels & which is on the frame. It has 28" "Best London Twist" barrels, is an extractor gun, but was fitted with an Infallible SST. I can't prove it but highly suspect this was done at the Ithaca factory. It has the doll's head, cocking indicators & late type scroll engraving on the side plates, & is stamped H.
The wood however I say is DS as it has no escutcheon or tip in the forend & the stock has an uncapped half pistol grip, both features of the DS grade.
Could be a "Lunch Box Special" for all I know.

To the uninitiated how would one know if they were looking at an Ithaca assembled Lefever, an Ithaca produced Lefever or a Dan Lefever?