doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Bayard Original Diana 12 gauge production year?

Greetings.

I recently purchased a beautiful side-by-side Bayard Original Diana, and I have been trying to find out when it was made. I have looked over the proofs on the barrel using damascus-barrels.com link. I see from a few prior posts, that there are some experts on Pieper/Bayard here, and I am hoping that someone can help me out.

As far as I can tell, it has no datecode, which should put it prior to 1922.
It has two controller of proof marks, *A and *M.

*A would put it between 1911 and 1940.
*M would put it between 1923 and 1952, but then I should have found a or b as datecode.

It has multiple Perron [1] markings.
I see that both barrels are black power proofed [13]
Both barrels are 12 gauge black powder proofed [24] (1898-1924)
Both barrels are nitro/smokeless proofed [19]
The chamber dimensions in mm are marked (75/20.6) [17] (1892-1924)
The barrels choked appear to be in the [28]format which would put it between 1910 and 1924.
Finally the weight markins put it prior to 1925

So somewhere between 1910 and 1924 is my current conclusion. Is there anyone who can shed some additional insight/help to allow me to find a bit more precise year?

I thank you for any help or responce in advance.

Pictures below:

I'm not seeing the pictures.

Thanks, appears to be some issue with my photogallery. Hopefully they show up now.

I think you have it....Id say post WW1 but the nitro tested marking on the barrel throws me a little....Nice looking Diana Bayard......

Well done Andreas. You've deciphered as much information as can be obtained from the marks, with one important point. Controller's marks can not be used to date a vintage Belgian gun; they were reused and the significance of some has been lost.

With the "Tested For Smokeless Powder" I suspect the gun is pre-WWI.

Cornell Pubs has several Pieper catalog reprints
http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/historic-pieper.php

You've probably found this resource
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20en%20tete%20gb.htm

Okay, thank you. At least I learned a bit more. Will look into the Cornell Pubs reprints.

Thanks for your assistance.

The D=75/20.6 says it had 75mm (2.953") long chambers which had a diameter of 20.6mm (.811") just ahead of the rim seat. This diameter is correct for a 12ga chamber at that point. Normally a gun with 3" chambers is marked 76mm but this one is a "Silly Little MM" short of 3". 3" actually converts to 76.2mm but they are usually marked as 76. This marking was a requirement for guns with smokeless proof & normally is not found on Black Powder only proofed guns. The "Rampant Lion" or whatever over PV is fact a smokeless proof. PV is Poudre Vive which interprets to Smokeless Powder Proof.
Even with the smokeless proof & that length chambers I would"NOT" recommend modern 3" Magnum shells for it.

With the step down in the barrels this gun likely follows Henri Pieper's original patent design for what we now refer to as Mono-Block construction. On Pieper's original design he bore the block through on a very slight taper & the barrel tubes had a mating taper on their breech ends. The tubes were inserted into the block from the rear, not the front as on most later designs of mono-block barrels. This is the reason they have the Step down as the block had to have some meat around the tubes.
Some Pieper guns with the barrels threaded into the block from the front do not have the step & are marked Modified Diana.

More information
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/24563589

Thank you, 2-piper.

I have plenty of Lyalvale Olympic 12/70 ammunition which works fine in my Winchester 1897 which I plan to use in this shotgun as well. As it will primarily be used for CAS, no magnum shell will never pass through it. (And would never use anything other than lead in such an old shotgun anyhow.)

I do thank you for that additional information. I learned a bit more about that shotgun now.

Thank you, Drew Hause. That was some interesting extra material to learn from.