doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Some English guns won't make proof.

May
S	M	T	W	T	F	S
			1	2	3	4
5	6	7	8	9	10	11
12	13	14	15	16	17	18
19	20	21	22	23	24	25
26	27	28	29	30	31

Who's Online Now

8 members (KY Jon, KDGJ, Researcher, FelixD, 2 invisible), 563 guests, and 5 robots.

Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Forum Statistics

Forums10

Topics38,499

Posts545,457

Members14,414

Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024

Print Thread

Page 2 of 5

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. volleyfire #477315 04/08/17 02:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480 Red State KY Jon Sidelock
KY Jon Sidelock Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480 Red State	Maybe someone is dumb enough to export guns out of proof but it has to be only a matter of time before he gets caught. Too many barrel wall thickness gauges out there and people know how to use them. So if you just bought a gun that is out of proof and it was discovered by your gunsmith while he was checking the gun out what would you do contact the seller or contact the exporter unless they are one in the same? Who would risk it for a few pounds shipping and handling or even a few hundred pounds profit on the sale. If caught you stand to loose so much more than that.

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. KY Jon #477323 04/08/17 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212 craigd Sidelock
craigd Sidelock Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 7,463 Likes: 212	Originally Posted By: KY Jon ....if you just bought a gun that is out of proof and it was discovered by your gunsmith while he was checking the gun out what would you do contact the seller or contact the exporter unless they are one in the same? Who would risk it for a few pounds shipping and handling or even a few hundred pounds profit on the sale. If caught you stand to loose so much more than that. I don't understand the part about getting caught and what's there to loose other than the cost of the purchase and or the repair? One could contact the seller and exporter/importer to claim some compensation that was thought to be due, but is it possible to violate a proof law in the US?

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. volleyfire #477329 04/08/17 05:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 12,743 Lynchburg TN 2-piper Sidelock
2-piper Sidelock Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 12,743 Lynchburg TN	Did he not "Violate The Law" in the country from which it was shipped. Even a century & more ago when most American gun makers were importing Damascus & Twist barrels, primarily from Belgium, they came in with provisional proof marks. They were finished here & did not carry the Definitive proof marks & in many cases the provisional ones were lost in the finishing process, however they still remain on many others. Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. KY Jon #477330 04/08/17 06:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2012 Posts: 601 Likes: 39 Midwest Brittany Man Sidelock
Brittany Man Sidelock Joined: Feb 2012 Posts: 601 Likes: 39 Midwest	Originally Posted By: KY Jon Too many barrel wall thickness gauges out there and people know how to use them. So if you just bought a gun that is out of proof and it was discovered by your gunsmith while he was checking the gun out what would you do contact the seller or contact the exporter unless they are one in the same? To help in my understanding of "in proof based upon proof law", which countries have minimum wall bbl thickness stated in their proof laws & what is the minimum thickness? I know .020" is suggested by some as minimum wall thickness but I was not aware that being below .020" bbl wall thickness made a gun out of proof assuming it was otherwise in proof. I'm not arguing that the .020" minimum doesn't make sense & that a gun w/less that .020" may not pass reproof but please clarify on the Proof Laws.

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. volleyfire #477332 04/08/17 07:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,426 Likes: 314 AZ but dreaming of KS Drew Hause Sidelock
Drew Hause Sidelock Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,426 Likes: 314 AZ but dreaming of KS	No CIP signatory has a MWT requirement for proof Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes � Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) http://www.cip-bobp.org/ Standard CIP proof pressure of 850 kg per sq. cm. (BAR) = 13,920 psi proof pressure = 10,730 psi service pressure (SAAMI) Shotgun recommended minimum wall thickness (p.4) for Standard Steel with tensile strength 700 - 849 N/sq. mm = 101,526-123,137 psi, which Chrome Moly 4140 just reaches http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/default/files/new_file/A-4-1_EN.pdf 12g...........................................................................20g End of chamber - .079�..................................................075� Just past the forcing cone/ 4� from breech - .075�................071� 8� - .043�..................................................................041� 12� - .030�.................................................................028� 16� - .024�.................................................................022� 20� - .022�.................................................................020� British Rules of Proof: If a plug gauge of 0.729" diameter will enter the bore to a depth of 9", that barrel is marked 12. If so marked and a plug gauge of 0.740" will enter the bore to a depth of 9", the barrels are "out-of-proof". https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. Pete #477335 04/08/17 08:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 704 Likes: 1 1cdog Sidelock
1cdog Sidelock Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 704 Likes: 1	I owned one at 18 that passed proof.

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. volleyfire #477343 04/08/17 09:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480 Red State KY Jon Sidelock
KY Jon Sidelock Joined: Mar 2002 Posts: 7,724 Likes: 480 Red State	Barrel wall thickness does not take a gun out of proof to be accurate and fair. I am more concerned about the wall thickness and safety in use, than being in proof which is why I measure the wall thickness in the first place. But when I measure a gun and find very thin walls I suspect it has been honed. If you then measure the bores and find it is now with a bore too large that it is in fact out of proof under US proof law, which does not exist on proof issues it is a non issue. But you can not sell or export a gun you know to be out of proof if you are a dealer in Great Britain as I understand it. In fact the auction houses refuse sell out of proof guns unless they have been cut to prevent their use. None of the guns I've imported have been out of proof unless it was some technical issue I did not know about. But what if one was? Would you first contact the seller or the exporting dealer or just forget about it unless the gun is of substantial value?

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. volleyfire #477347 04/08/17 11:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 9,740 Likes: 97 nh mostly ed good Sidelock
ed good Sidelock Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 9,740 Likes: 97 nh mostly	proof smoof...when evaluating fluid steel barrels for safe shooting with smokeless field loads, just make sure you have 90 thousands or more of barrel wall in front of the chambers and a minimum of 30 thousands 7 to 9 inches down from the muzzles...anything less than that should be suspect and perhaps relegated to light black powder loads only... keep it simple and keep it safe...

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. Drew Hause #477349 04/08/17 11:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2012 Posts: 601 Likes: 39 Midwest Brittany Man Sidelock
Brittany Man Sidelock Joined: Feb 2012 Posts: 601 Likes: 39 Midwest	Originally Posted By: Drew Hause No CIP signatory has a MWT requirement for proof Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes � Feu Portatives (C.I.P.) http://www.cip-bobp.org/ Standard CIP proof pressure of 850 kg per sq. cm. (BAR) = 13,920 psi proof pressure = 10,730 psi service pressure (SAAMI) Shotgun recommended minimum wall thickness (p.4) for Standard Steel with tensile strength 700 - 849 N/sq. mm = 101,526-123,137 psi, which Chrome Moly 4140 just reaches http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/default/files/new_file/A-4-1_EN.pdf 12g...........................................................................20g End of chamber - .079�..................................................075� Just past the forcing cone/ 4� from breech - .075�................071� 8� - .043�..................................................................041� 12� - .030�.................................................................028� 16� - .024�.................................................................022� 20� - .022�.................................................................020� British Rules of Proof: If a plug gauge of 0.729" diameter will enter the bore to a depth of 9", that barrel is marked 12. If so marked and a plug gauge of 0.740" will enter the bore to a depth of 9", the barrels are "out-of-proof". Drew, Thank you for confirming that I still understand what being "in proof" means. I'm not sure that some of the other posters grasp the concept that you can have a gun with very thin bbl wall thickness that is technically & legally still in proof. I'm all for checking bbl wall thickness but I can't see that thin barrel wall thickness would legally prevent anyone from exporting or selling a gun that is otherwise in proof. The fact that doing so is not a good business practice is another matter.

Re: Some English guns won't make proof. volleyfire #477364 04/09/17 07:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 12,743 Lynchburg TN 2-piper Sidelock
2-piper Sidelock Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 12,743 Lynchburg TN	Note the gun is "Not" Out of Proof with thin barrels "IF" it was proofed with those thin barrels. It "IS" out of proof "IF" the bores have been enlarged beyond the legal limit without it being re-proofed, thus producing the thin barrels After Proof. Very often this is the case on guns having very thin barrels. Such guns are not illegal to sell here in the US, Caveat Emptor. They are illegal to sell "OR" Export in countries with proof laws. Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra

Page 2 of 5

Link Copied to Clipboard