doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Swamped ribs

Thanks kieth, your insults have been missed the last few weeks. I'm sure all here appreciate you bringing this very informative thread down to your level, but what else would anyone expect from you. Your such a hateful human being.

Aesthetics is a mostly subjective matter. But if the lack of ribs bothers, then an intelligent gunmaker would contrive a removable rib satisfying aesthetics while giving access to the space between the barrels. A removable carbon fiber rib weighs less than 30 grams, Benelli uses them on some models, they are adaptable to double gun construction.

Alternatively there is the Darne tactic of using only a top rib, thus saving weight while providing access to the barrels.

To cure this rib thing watch a rib relaying process and see the rust and pitting in between the barrels. Dewey Vicknair has some photos on his site.

And no, tinning is not a sure way to prevent between the barrels rust. Rib relaying ruins the bluing, thus for the sake of one single square inch of solder surface area (maybe even less) one pays the cost of total reblue. Sounds kind of backward but to each his own.

I have a Birmingham .410 with a semi-swamped rib, and I love it.

I have never handled an Alex Martin ribless gun, but I think I would like it.

You would. I have had the privledge of handling a boxlock and a sidelock, both were among the very best guns I have ever handled.

Opinions regarding shotguns are like belly buttons, everybody has one. Hey, most of the guys who have ejectors on a gun hold a hand over them to keep them from ejecting. A lot of them watch the ejected hulls fly, and then turn around, bend over, and pick them up.

Damn if I get it, but, whatever floats your boat.

Not sure why I could never wrap my head around a Cutts (the one I had threw good patterns) but, I have a theory, and that is that I have to close one eye at the shot, since I'm cross eye dominant, and any more bling out there is distracting, more so than it would be if I could leave both eyes open. A lot changes when you wink an eye shut, like, just about all your depth perception evaporates. So, less is more, for me.

The vented Cutts was LOUD, too.


Best,
Ted

Ever the helpful guy, let me see if I can help you "get it", for a few situations.

Dove shooting. Doves coming to feed in the fields do so in flurries, often. You may sit for an hour or two, with very little action, then all of a sudden "it's on". Droves of birds everywhere, coming from all directions. The limit is 15 per day. Semi automatics are favored these days, but a few of us prefer the old way, two shell guns. It is much, much easier to allow the shells to eject, reload quickly so as to take full advantage of the flights available before they are gone. When the birds are gone, or the host calls an end to the shoot so the remaining birds can feed, you have plenty time to pick up empties.

Duck hunting in a blind. Same deal, different locale and surroundings. Semi automatics rule again, but again many of us like the two shot guns. Let 'em eject onto the blind floor, or the boat deck, keep shooting while you can, pick 'em up later. No big deal. It saves time while the birds are in the air.

Clays shooting. Catching the two hulls in your hand as they eject is light years ahead of digging them out with your fingers as they extract. When you are shooting a tournament, or even a fun round with your buddies, and there are maybe six shooters on your squad, there are other squads behind you. You can be sure that six shooters pulling out shells that are extracted, as opposed to letting them eject and either catching them to put in your emptied pouch or just letting them hit the deck (hey, the range owners expect to have to pick up hulls ..... they have magnets on sticks to do so ..... do automatic and pump shooters pick up their hulls on a sporting range? No.) will slow things down to the point that squads will be backed up and waiting. Not good.

There is a vocal percentage on this and other chat forums who apparently love the moribund chore of pulling empties out of their chambers, and attempt to take the "high road" and play the littering card on those who prefer ejectors. I've not read where you have ever done that, Ted, but a great many of your compadres here have, and do. That's a shame, when no one takes on the automatic and pump shooters for the same thing. I'll bet that a great many more ejector doublegun shooters police their empties than automatic or pump shooters.

I like ejectors, and find little interest in doubleguns that don't have them. I get it, and they're one of the niceties that "float my boat".

All my best, SRH

Good grief. If we all liked the same stuff it'd be an awfully dull existence. I love the lines on my Ideal, plume ramp and swamped rib. I've also become so used to the clean lines of no top lever that after looking at some pics of round action Dicksons, I removed them from my bucket list. How's that for heresy? Stan- as usual, a lot of what you say makes sense for ejectors and how/where you shoot. Two observations: 1) If I were shooting clays and the guys behind me were so uptight about the extra second it took me for the extractors, I'd let them "play through" or find another clays course. 2) Where I hunt, often in heavy cover or shin high grass, ejectors suck. I've upland hunted with them and hated them. My Arrieta sent them out so fast and far, a friend (after they went whizzzing by him) asked me if I'd ever chronographed them. There is one sxs left on my bucket list (yeah, I know, but really), and I would not pass on it if it were to have ejectors. Where I hunt and what I do, extractors rock. Mike

I was mostly referring to tournaments, Mike, where there will be large squads on every station, depending on the squad ahead of them to be timely with their shooting so that yours can move up, though I did mention shooting with your buddies, too.. Delays in big tournaments, whatever causes them are frustration for everybody. I understand that some folks like extractors above ejectors. What I don't understand is how some people get so uptight and act like they hate them. Over the years, on here and other boards, I've noticed a tendency on the part of so many to bash ejectors, and the people who prefer them. I'd never think that way about someone who chose to use extractors. I hunt quail in high grass and brush, too. When I use an ejector gun I just catch them as they pop out. It's so easy.

It's nice to have choices, eh?

All my best, SRH

I acquired my first double back in 1954 at the age of 16. It was an extractor, J Stevens Arms & Tool Co gun. Over the years I have owned a few ejector guns but have primarily used extractor guns. I have nothing per se against ejectors & certainly no bad feelings toward those who prefer them. I just personally would not pay much of a premium for them. When you don't want your empties to hit the ground I have found little to no difference in time involved in "Digging" out the empties than in catching them. Perhaps it's just because I have been doing it so long I am used to it, but I honestly can think of hardly no time that I have felt handicapped by the lack of ejectors.
Bottom line is if the right gun comes along at the right price Ejector or Extractor is simply not a deciding factor to me.
I have had one gun which was best of both worlds, an A Grade 20ga Syracuse Arms Co. A mere flick of a little lever in the forend would change it from ejector to extractor mode. That was about the only feature of it I truly liked so didn't keep it long. It was a 7lb gun with 28" Krupp steel barrels, both full choke, a combo I had little use for. Traded it for a J P Clabrough SLNE 12ga with 28" damascus barrels both bored to � choke & 2oz less weight. This gun I still have some 35 years later & it turned out to be a gun I could shoot better than probably any other gun I have ever owned, though I have had some which came close. Among those which are close is an FE Lefever which of course is an ejector gun.

I have observed the removal and relaying of ribs by many gunsmiths. There is a certain entertainment value in seeing the ingenuity of rib holding jigs and the heating methods employed in the process. Most impressive is the one where the rib holders are slices of drain pipe with wing nuts top and bottom to hold the ribs, while long electric heating elements are in the barrels heating them so solder will flow.

There is also disappointment in seeing how an otherwise good double needs rebarreling or sleeving because rust has worked for years unseen in the space between ribs.

Seeing a rare but dramatic total barrel blowout when a weakened barrel bursts on the inside, venting gases to the space between the ribs causing the whole kaboodle to end up in a twisted mess is educational. I have a photo but posting pics is problematic here.

The French swamped rib is a partial prevention for the above as it is an "I" sectioned piece that incorporates top and bottom flats that replace ribs. That is how it is done in the Ideal.

Overall, soldered ribs are an anachronistic remnant from muzzle loading and the best illustration of what the late Gough Thomas called "mental inertia" in gunmaking.

A method used in the currently manufactured Ithaca M37 pump is innovative. The rib is removable for purposes of replacement if damaged. One end fits into a slot near the muzzle and is secured at the breech end of the barrel via a small screw. The supporting stanchions are milled into the barrel billet.