doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What Does it Take For an SXS to Shoot Loose?

Actually Nudge, you DID suggest that American anything is/was better than that coming out of Europe. You specifically said that British cars will leave you on the side of the road and French cars are to be laughed at. While it will be the American truck that comes to your rescue.

You didn't qualify those comments, to any company, any time period, anything. They were blanket statements.

Cars to laugh at? I'll take a Citroen Deux Chevaux or a Citroen SM over a Pacer, Matador, Aztec or any number of laughably useless and ugly American cars.

There is usually a problem when one makes blanket statements or generalizations. The facts get in the way.

Im not biting, Canvasback. As I said, willfull misinterpretation. Ive never liked the "misfires" threads awash in petty arguments.

You can bicker with yourself...i already have a wife.

- Nudge

Hahaha!

That's quite funny, Nudge. Sorry to hear you have bickering anywhere in your life. As far as willful misinterpretation goes, I can't help what you write. Those were your words and your choices. And misfires? Were you forced to read it or could you just not help yourself? Seems a little self serving at this point.

To bring this at least back onto guns, the reason I took exception to your statements regarding Brit guns is you seem to ignore the fact that the Brit gun industry was export oriented and they made what the market wanted. The punitive tariffs applied by the US to protect home industry resulted in a "distortion" of production by the Brits for your market. Not arguing good or bad, just that is what happened.

So it was not an "aesthetic" that Brit guns had but a response to a tariff-created market distortion. Without the tariffs, it's likely the US would be awash in more robust Brit guns, suitable for the kind of hunting done in NA.

Ted, $2K plus is "expensive" to a lot more people than $700 is. And I do agree that 700's are "nicer" than NID's . . . as they should be, at 3x the price.

Whether a few Super-X loads would "hurt" . . . Well, a 2 3/4" chambered Model 700 is going to carry a 3 1/4 ton proof. That's service pressure. Converted to our psi measurement: 9,682 psi. That's about 2,000 psi shy of the 12ga service pressure standard in this country. Might not hurt . . . or might. And would certainly hurt your shoulder more than the same round fired out of a gun that was designed to handle Super-X loads, and weighs about a pound more. Stronger and heavier, Ted, because it was specifically built for heavier loads.

So, do you take "nicer" in terms of appearance, nicer handling characteristics for an upland gun . . . or do you take stronger and cheaper? You pay your money and you take your chances, as they say.

Larry,
It would only be at zero, or below, as I already posted. I know it wouldn't hurt my shoulder, shotgun ammunition looses quite a bit of steam aproaching zero degrees, and it gets worse as the temp goes down further.
Above that temp, regular 1 1/8th oz loads would go back in the gun, and get me all I needed.
In the Silver Snipe, I load the 1 1/4 oz load in the top tube, and just use a lighter load in the first barrel. I don't get to do a ton of shooting in those temps, so, typically the second round would be a hail mary, and usually wouldn't get taken.
For what it is worth, 1 1/4 oz loads were the MINIMUM my Dad used in the Silver Snipe, he bought into all the hype back in the day on baby magnums, and the gun is still tight as a tick. It is still stiff to open.
It isn't proofed any higher than the Webley, either. Bet in the years I've got left to shoot, I'd be just fine.
And I wouldn't be shooting a NID.


Best,
Ted

Ted, are you sure your Silver Snipe isn't proofed any higher than a W&S? I recently acquired a fancier version of the same gun (BL-4/S56-E) in 20ga. Mine might well be later than yours. Date code says 1972. Anyhow, mine has the superior/magnum proofmark. Check the barrel flats on your Snipe. You should find PSF with either one or two stars in wheels over it. One is standard proof. If yours has two--which mine has--that's 17,600 psi, or about 4,000 psi higher than the standard CIP proof that Webley would have.

Nothing wrong with shooting a NID. As with most American classics, you need to drop down to the 16ga to get a weight similar to a Brit game gun. But you can also shoot the same shot charge you'd want to shoot in a Webley. And you'd have enough money left over to buy a Silver Snipe 12.

Larry,
The PSF mark, with the single pinwheel:



There is also a pinwheel near the Finito stamp that appears elsewhere on the monobloc. But, I'm pretty sure it is the lower level of proof.

I think you have confused the Silver Snipe, imported by Galef, with the BL series guns, imported after 1968 by Garcia. The Snipe guns were all 2 3/4" guns, and all the 20 gauge Garcia BL guns were 3" chamber. That likely explains the higher proof on your gun. The Snipe is a flat spring design, the BL used coils. I'm told that very late in production a selective single trigger was available for the Snipe, however, I've never seen one, and that is in most of forty years of looking, the usual trigger is a non selective single. A few had double triggers.
The short lived BL1 had double triggers. The BL2 had the weird-aunt-locked-in-the attic speed trigger. BL 3s and 4s were single selective trigger.
The Snipes are a different series of guns, with a different importer than the BLs. An interesting side note, Webley bought in-the-white Silver Snipe barreled actions, and stocked and case colored them, selling them as Webleys. There are a few listed on the sites right now, at what I consider stupid money.

I don't actually need another Silver Snipe. But, I would still rather carry it (or, the 30" Webley double for sale right here) over an NID.

Regardless of price.

Best,
Ted

Ted, you are mostly correct on the Galef/Garcia imports. Garcia did not import the Snipes, Silver or Golden. However, the BL guns retained the same European designation (S-55/56, etc) as were used when the Snipes were imported. I have Beretta catalog copy from 1963 that shows the Snipes and the higher grade S-series guns. My BL-4, from 1972, is also marked S-56E on the barrel flats.

And while you might well rather carry the Webley than a NID, you'd still pay 3x as much . . . for a gun with a lower proof standard. The $1500 or so price difference would be a deal breaker for a lot of people. You want a gun that's lighter than a NID, for similar money? And can shoot pretty much anything 2 3/4"? Ithaca SKB 100 12ga.

No, Larry, I'm 100% correct. The designation of S-55, S-56, etc, was applied by Beretta to two DIFFERENT generations of guns. Your BL-4 is not a Snipe, and a Snipe is not a BL.
Regardless of what you read into the similar designation.

Did you check to see if your gun had 3" chambers? According to my 1973 catalog, all the 20 gauge BL models did. That would pretty much explain the higher level of proof.

While I'm not sure what the "proof standard" is for a NID, (where is the US proof house, Larry?) it would seem to me that the newest of them are approaching 80 years of age, and should be treated with a bit of respect related to pressures and recoil, if only for the sake of the wood, if nothing else. In my eyes, that puts you right back where you should be, as far as ammunition, with the Webley.

Too many of the Japanese guns had single triggers, pistole grips and short barrels for my tastes, Larry. Maybe some are out there that are configured like the 700 we see, here, but, I quit looking a long time ago.

You can have my model 100. I'll find something else.


Best,
Ted

Within the last year, Mark Beasland sold a NIB SKB Model 100 12ga with 30" barrels. Plenty out there with 26" barrels, but also plenty with 28" barrels. But, like the 700 advertised, not many of either with 30". If you want it that badly, it's still for sale . . . at which point you could hang that old Snipe on the wall. Although, if you're talking ST, there's a certain advantage for cold weather hunting. And since your Snipe has both a ST and a PG, don't know why those would bother you on a modern Japanese sxs?

My BL-4 20ga does have 3" chambers . . . but that does not necessarily "explain" the higher level of proof. While we don't have a proofhouse, we do have SAAMI, to which all American gun and ammo makers adhere. And it was coming on line just about the same time as the NID. And no need for a higher proof for American 20ga (or 12ga) magnum guns than for those with 2 3/4" chambers, because the SAAMI service pressure standard is the same for both 2 3/4" and 3" shells: 11,500 psi for 12ga; 12,000 psi for 20ga. The magnum (or superior) proof on European guns is simply an adjustment they made to make sure their guns accommodated our higher service pressures--which were already higher in standard 2 3/4" chambers than theirs.

What I "read into" the S-56 etc designations is not that a Snipe is a BL, but that Beretta OU's retained the same European designations when Garcia imported them as when Galef imported them. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the comparison of the NID to the 700, the newest NID's would be about the same age as the oldest 700's. Overlap in the late 40's. You're eager to equate them because you're trying to sell the superiority of the Webley . . . but it's not superior in terms of original proof, because the NID appeared along with the Super-X (explaining the change to a stronger action from the previous Flues guns). Those were the loads it was designed to handle . . . but they weren't the loads the 700's were designed to handle. Gun for gun, the Webleys are lighter, which means both the shooter and the gun are more susceptible to recoil. You're not likely to find anyone using a 700 as a waterfowl gun. The NID, back in the lead shot days, was a solid candidate for both ducks and pheasants--mainly because the standard lead shot load (maybe changing from 6's to 5's or 4's in the Super-X) was just as good on ducks as it was on pheasants. And, as a heavier gun, it was a better choice for a steady diet of those loads.