doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Charles Daly Modells 43/53/55/60 - 401/402/403/404

Some other outliers are the unadorned E.C. Schmidt's examples 1424 & 1522 that have additions that seem to suggest completion post 1900. Maybe they laid about for a time. But I contend that Daly had control of the serial number sequence or @ least set the groundwork. E.C. Schmidt Nr. 1424 wears the initials E.C. on each side of the water table & on one of the tubes & I'd hazard a guess it notes effort by an E. Schilling or Ernst Schilling. Schmidt might have added some effort but I'm doubtful unless additional examples post WWI surface w/ the same E.S. initial stamp.

E.C. Schmidt underwent his apprentice study in Suhl and then immigrated to the U.S. of A. and picked up the pieces of the William R. Schaefer shop.

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=404463&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Henry kindly forwarded info on his Charles Daly - Lindner hammergun being Serial #2901, 10ga hammer gun w/ 30" barrels "Charles Daly Damascus Barrels" on top rib & initials JW.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

My word at the "stuff" in that Damascus Colour thread, but it would appear that I have had in hand Charles Daly - Lindner Nr. 459 & it wasn't #500 so I missed it by 41 examples?:

#459 with 615 on tubes near forend-lug
with "Crown" over "V" on watertable?
Crossed Pistols over HAL high on the tubes near the forend-lug
Dolls head extension & ejectors
initials "R.S." - guess Robert Schleglemilch
interesting "Made In Prussia" stamp around the hammer screw where there was also "Charles Daly"

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=236153&page=8

If it wore a Crown over V(Vorrat) the it was completed in Spring 1893.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1905 Advert
"Daly" Gun Factory - Established 1871

Schoverling, Daly & Gales - Established 1865

I was looking for one of the Schoverling & Daly 1871 hammergun adverts & I stumbled across this 1905 advert, which I'm sure I've posted prior. But I think it lends credence to the theory that Charles Daly controlled the serial numbers.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

1871 The Daly Gun Advert noting W.R. Schaefer & Thos. L. Golcher

The above was what for which I was searching. Now to sift thru all the serial numbers in the Daly Colour thread to check for duplicate serial numbers.......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

OK,

A first series gun, rather than second, lacking the first Lindner mark. So much for using lock design and sourcing as an aid to dating. Does this sound right? It appears some locks now were sourced locally, within the first series, yet before the time Heinrich took over from Georg. A fairly low number, so pre-1877?

This gun also "Begs the Question" that possibly Daly/Georg were sourcing complete guns from Schilling during the first series, possibly before completion of the Daly-Lindner agreement in the 1877-78 time frame?

I'm using the terms "first series" and "second series" for the Lindner, post-Scott serial numbers, and "first mark" and "second mark" (crown, then HAL) for the marks attributed to Heinrich.

I can't remember what year American import laws were changed requiring country of origin stampings, but I assume guns marked "Saxony" or "Made in Prussia" were after it was enacted.

Now, to me, that's a Black & White gun, falling into the first series. But, original or restored?

I need to step back, review all the threads and reconsolidate my notes. My brain is beginning to hurt.

Regards
Ken

Schilling for the most part did the heavy lifting in crafting metal to adaptable form and then Triebel added talent and flare to technical components(I have wondered in what state the A&D Body Actions arrived???). Boys Lindner & their mechanics added final flare w/ H.A. Lindner acting as QA/QC. Then Hugo Kolb added the adornment. A question I have as which concerns did H.A. Lindner pass thru on his walkabout & where was he in the early 1870s??? In the 2nd series it would seem that H.A. Lindner migrated to Sauer & M-4 & I have for a time thought he spent quite some time in an area set aside by Sauer as a upper rung room. Once S,D&G really spooled up, H.A. Lindner alone could not fully supply the needs of the American market that S,D&G developed.

Up until say the last decade in the 19th Century, the Germans wanted to be British & actually German governing bodies had strong British ties. Krupp seems to be the one that brought back national identity to Germany, with which confidence & pride in their own products was developed. Actually, I think the craftsmen had to convince the masses that inland Germany could produce wares as good or better than their British counterparts. So I'd still say Brown on the pattern welded tubes until the black coloured steel was prominent & then the pattern welded tubes were black.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Krupp's supremacy was cemented during the Franco-Prussian war. No matter how much elan the French showed, it was no match for the superiority of Krupp arms, causing the withering of the French Army at Sedan.

Ever read Manchester's "The Arms of Krupp"?

Regards
Ken

Not fully Ken61.

A premise surrounding the the term Saxony paired w/ the Crossed Sidearms surmounted by a Crown was a stop gap measure to comply w/ the 1890 McKinley Tariff Act which was effective March 1891. More than likely the British led the charge on this requiring the Germans to stamp their wares to indicate the country of origin. Preu�ische Sachsen would actually be the term but the Brits required the name in the origin stamp to be either English or French, and the Americans more than likely followed suit. Japan had the same identity issue w/ Nippon & English term Japan. Then say in 1893 the Germans could no longer use the term Saxony as the name in the origin could not be a city, province, state, department or other division but rather the actual country of origin. So when H.A. Lindner made the transition from his QA/QC stamp of Crossed Pistols surmounted by a Crown to Crossed Pistols surmounted by HAL, the term PRUSSIA was added to the lot to replaced the inaccurate/invalid Saxony state term. It would be a viable option to date German wares with the origin stamp of Saxony between March of 1891 and say March of 1893. So when Suhl actually learned their identity w/ respect to exported wares, then Prussia was used. Remember on the average the time from which a sporting arm was issued a serial number to the final state of completion could have been as much as 6 month(per Daly).

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

I few points pending my review and reconsolidation.

As far as A&D actions. Do you think they were sourced directly from Francotte, complete with brevet number? Or, was someone like Schilling licensed by Francotte for production, who then applied a brevette number issued by Francotte? Either would indicate out of sequence numbers.

A note on the Schilling gun. The C/coloring is different on each lock. It could indicate later restoration attempts, not to mention the fairly good barrel condition. Considering these C/C and barrel coloring processs were still being used even by the time the gun was 40 years old.

Regards
Ken